N18 Mnemonic Spike + Night-Night

[Barking Agatha]

So, in the post-battle sequence Bad Astrid buys herself a dose of Night-Night, and a Mnemonic Inload Spike. Before she inserts the spike into her head she announces that she is injecting herself with the Night-Night, so that the Lasting Injury roll for the mnemonic spike will automatically be 'Out Cold'.

Is she allowed to do that? RAW probably not. RAI, who knows? But would you allow it? 🙂

 

[Espen]

IDK about the spike trick, but my 4-year old daughter Astrid is now loudly demanding to know what a Bad Astrid looks like.

 

[Thorgor]

Relevant rules:

When a gang buys an inload spike, they must choose one of their fighters to attempt to use its data. The chosen fighter must immediately roll on the Lasting Injuries table. If the fighter is still alive after making this roll they gain one skill of their choice from Agility, Brawn, Combat, Cunning, Ferocity, Leadership, Savant or Shooting. The spike is then used up and removed from the gang’s stash.

When a fighter under the effects of this stimm goes Out of Action, do not roll for a Lasting Injury. Instead, the fighter counts as having rolled a result of 12-26 Out Cold on the Lasting Injury table. Note that the fighter may still be captured as normal.

A fighter can start a battle under the effects of any stimm they are equipped with if they choose, or can administer that stimm during a battle to themselves or a friendly fighter in base contact by performing an Administer Dose (Simple) action during their activation.

RAW, it doesn't work for a couple of reasons.
First, night-night only triggers when a fighter goes Out of action, and the Spike doesn't cause the fighter to go Out of action (you immediately roll on the Lasting Injuries table instead) so there is nothing for night-night to replace.
Second, you can only inject stimms at the start of a battle or during a battle, and the Spike takes effect in the post-battle sequence so you can't administer the chem immediately prior to purchasing the Spike.

Would I allow it? Sure, whatever.

 

[TopsyKretts]

This sounds like an abusive combo because it completely negates the downside (potential injury) for getting the skill. I think the rules are correct here to deny this situation. So both RAW and RAI are 'no' in this case.

 

[Devilmixer]

This sounds like an abusive combo because it completely negates the downside (potential injury) for getting the skill. I think the rules are correct here to deny this situation. So both RAW and RAI are 'no' in this case.

but you pay extra cred to negate the downside

 

[Devilmixer]

RAW, it doesn't work for a couple of reasons.
First, night-night only triggers when a fighter goes Out of action, and the Spike doesn't cause the fighter to go Out of action (you immediately roll on the Lasting Injuries table instead) so there is nothing for night-night to replace.
Second, you can only inject stimms at the start of a battle or during a battle, and the Spike takes effect in the post-battle sequence so you can't administer the chem immediately prior to purchasing the Spike.

Would I allow it? Sure, whatever.

I agree, but would Bad astid miss the next battle?

 

[Vonvilkee]

I agree, but would Bad astid miss the next battle?

Depends on the injury roll

 

[Thorgor]

You pay to negate the downside, but the downside you're preventing is guaranteed to happen (while a fighter may use a dose of Night-night before a battle and never get taken Out of action, wasting the dose). That makes it an optimal use of Night-night (but I wouldn't consider it broken).

If you get to use Night-night you get an automatic Out cold result, which means there is no effect (so the fighter doesn't go into Recovery)

The rules also don't specify when exactly the effect of Night-night ends. Maybe it lasts long enough that a fighter who took a dose before the battle an still safely use a Spike during the post-battle sequence... your call.

 

[JayTee]

The rules also don't specify when exactly the effect of Night-night ends. Maybe it lasts long enough that a fighter who took a dose before the battle an still safely use a Spike during the post-battle sequence... your call.

It does at the bottom of Pg 93.

"A dose or application lasts for the duration of a single battle..."

Given the name "post-battle" I think one would be hard pressed to argue this is within the duration of a single battle

 

[TopsyKretts]

The reason I say it's abusive is because it lets any Escher gang trade infinite amount of money for infinite amount of skills? If the gang is low on money, the combo is limited. If the gang is rich, the combo is limitless. The price is quite high though, maybe that's what making it less broken? 125 + illegal (12). Could be affected by hangers-on and skills like Tech Merchant, Connected and Savvy Trader.

 

[Barking Agatha]

Given the name "post-battle" I think one would be hard pressed to argue this is within the duration of a single battle

RAW there are various reasons why it can't be done, I think we all agree.

But this one is a bit weird. Why can't you take your drugs unless you're in a battle? Do you reach into your jacket pocket, take out the syringe, roll up your sleeve and... the needle won't go in? Does the Escher Police appear and say, 'Stop! Life-saving drugs are for gang-fights only, not for medical or recreational use!'?

Anyway, it's just an idea.

Edit: Here's another idea. How about selling doses of Night-Night to other players?

I wouldn't sell Hyper to a Corpse-Grinder gang, personally, but I wouldn't mind selling them a few doses of Night-Night out of my stash. Buy them for 10 credits thanks to my Chem-Alchemist, sell them for 30, and the other gangs get the benefit of knowing that their Leader won't die horribly in the next battle. It helps with my economy, which lets me afford even more drugs, and then everyone can do the Mnemonic Spike trick if they feel so inclined.

It also lets me choose who I sell to and who I don't, so they had all better be nice to me! Maybe refuse to sell to Enforcers. And Goliaths. It would be up to me, really.

Ha!

 

[Devilmixer]

Depends on the injury roll

not if they used night-night

If you get to use Night-night you get an automatic Out cold result, which means there is no effect (so the fighter doesn't go into Recovery)

but since it is not in a battle, would then count the out cold for the upcoming battle?

 

[Thorgor]

but since it is not in a battle, would then count the out cold for the upcoming battle?

What do you mean? If you get an Out cold result (either by rolling normally or with the Spike) there is no effect at all...
If you roll and get a result that puts the fighter in Recovery, then they have to miss the next battle as normal.

 

[Devilmixer]

What do you mean? If you get an Out cold result (either by rolling normally or with the Spike) there is no effect at all...
If you roll and get a result that puts the fighter in Recovery, then they have to miss the next battle as normal.

I see your point, I would just let the fighter sit one battle over as, normally you would miss the rest the battle

 

[Galtarr]

Edit: Here's another idea. How about selling doses of Night-Night to other players?

I wouldn't sell Hyper to a Corpse-Grinder gang, personally, but I wouldn't mind selling them a few doses of Night-Night out of my stash. Buy them for 10 credits thanks to my Chem-Alchemist, sell them for 30, and the other gangs get the benefit of knowing that their Leader won't die horribly in the next battle. It helps with my economy, which lets me afford even more drugs, and then everyone can do the Mnemonic Spike trick if they feel so inclined.

It also lets me choose who I sell to and who I don't, so they had all better be nice to me! Maybe refuse to sell to Enforcers. And Goliaths. It would be up to me, really.

Ha!

I like this but it's a campaign thing. Either gang specific stuff is restricted for usage or it isn't. Early on we had an Orlock player desperate to get his hands on some Escher Acid rounds. Either by buying or trading for captured fighter etc..

I think if you allow it you also allow selling everything from gang specific weapons, Wargear, pets, jetpacks and hoverboards etc.. again might want to avoid selling hoverboard to CGC..

Or not.. it's your (collective) game. Just allowing some cross gang usage and not others doesn't sit well with me.

But then I think the different gang sprues are best mixed together to build a ragtag gang rather than the heavily themed ones we got...

Also would be more tempted by slave ogryn gang if the rules allowed more freedom to kit them out but I digress...Hmm would you sell Hyper to an Ogryn gang 🤔😉

 

[Barking Agatha]

IDK about the spike trick, but my 4-year old daughter Astrid is now loudly demanding to know what a Bad Astrid looks like.

She looks like this:

Astrid

• Barking Agatha
• Mar 18, 2021

She's not really bad, she's just... no, she's actually pretty bad

 

[JawRippa]

The reason I say it's abusive is because it lets any Escher gang trade infinite amount of money for infinite amount of skills? If the gang is low on money, the combo is limited. If the gang is rich, the combo is limitless. The price is quite high though, maybe that's what making it less broken? 125 + illegal (12). Could be affected by hangers-on and skills like Tech Merchant, Connected and Savvy Trader.

I think that at this stage (nearly infinite cash) Neomunda stops working very well and its time to restart the campaign anyway.

As for the spike and night-night, trick why not? Lorewise it kinda makes sense, use a potent drug before the operation to let iti go smoothly. Seems flavorful.
But then why not use Night-night during doctor visit, to negate getting a lasting injury? That'd be probably an abuse, but again, you do pay credits for it.

 

[Barking Agatha]

I think that at this stage (nearly infinite cash) Neomunda stops working very well and its time to restart the campaign anyway.

As for the spike and night-night, trick why not? Lorewise it kinda makes sense, use a potent drug before the operation to let iti go smoothly. Seems flavorful.
But then why not use Night-night during doctor visit, to negate getting a lasting injury? That'd be probably an abuse, but again, you do pay credits for it.

Well, at that point it's already too late: the Lasting Injury roll has been made, which is why you have to visit the doctor at all.

 

[JawRippa]

Well, at that point it's already too late: the Lasting Injury roll has been made, which is why you have to visit the doctor at all.

You do get to roll again if you survive the procedure and the "tens" are automatic 5. You could possibly night-night that away. I'm a bit too lazy to look into wording at the moment.

 

[Barking Agatha]

Hmm... good point, but good luck convincing our arbitrator of that one!