Mordheim Community Edition?

MeanBone

Juve
Apr 28, 2011
19
7
3
Dubuque, Iowa, USA
In truth, the disadvantage of 1 shot vs. 2 shots (with a -1 to-hit penalty) isn't huge. It's usually a 1-in-2 chance to hit vs. a 5-in-9 chance (including a 1-in-9 chance to hit twice). And it requires both not moving and having a target at half-range or less.

For Sisters and Skaven, an enemy within 8 inches is often a better target for a charge in any case -- get first strike, hit on a 3 or 4, suffer no penalties to wound and be in prime position to finish them off if they're stunned or knocked down.

Archers would get somewhat more value from their higher-cost bows, however, if they had the option of firing twice at half-range -- depending on the bow, that's 8, 12, or 15 inches (or 18 in the rarer cases of Elf Bows, typically used by heroes). As Mercs are limited to 7 marksmen capable of using long bows, they're less likely to abuse the ability than a large horde of sling-armed Skaven.
 

MeanBone

Juve
Apr 28, 2011
19
7
3
Dubuque, Iowa, USA
Taking a break from softening up Skaven and their overpowered slings, one glaring weakness for the Horned Rat's children is the large, expensive target known as the Rat Ogre. It's hard to justify 210 gc for a single henchman that has a 1-in-3 chance of dying each time it goes OOA in a battle. For 210, you could buy 9 decently armed Verminkin -- 9 attacks, 9 wounds, capable of gaining experience -- clearly a better buy than the Rat Ogre. To give the big, furry mutant a break, I'd say that his inherent toughness and nasty disposition allow him to die only on a roll of 1 rather than a 1 or 2 when rolling injuries after a battle.
 

spafe

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Trying to think of other big guys, the orc troll springs to mind that it cannot die but has to be fed lots... could a similar system be put in for this brute?

The only other one that really springs to mind is the hired ogryn (in official rules anyway), that is a hired goon so not such a problem...
 

Tulkas

Mr. Shadowlord
Mordheim Professor
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Mar 23, 2012
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Too true, the Rat Ogre is a walking money sink. Hows about letting it roll on the Heroes' Serious injuries table?
 

spafe

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That could be a useful way to allow for one-off's in gangs. A new rule, given to plague cart, troll, rat ogre, pit fighter ogre and anything else ive forgotten thats a henchmen but is a huge investment and a one off for the gang, that allows them to roll on hero injury test rather than henchmen death chart
 

MeanBone

Juve
Apr 28, 2011
19
7
3
Dubuque, Iowa, USA
The heroes' serious injury chart always did seem to make more sense for hired swords -- they're essentially hired heroes. It could work for the Rat Ogre, although several entries -- Robbed, Arm Wound, Madness, Hardened, Horrible Scars -- might either not apply or be redundant (it has no possessions, uses no weapons, already causes fear, etc.). The chart seems to have been geared more for typical heroes, although it's true that Vampires and Ogre Bodyguards gain no benefit from Hardened or Horrible Scars, either.
 

spafe

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You do however also get that problem with promoted heros too, gouls heros will never have weapons to be robbed etc. I dont think it breaks it that there are some redundant rolls...
 

Tulkas

Mr. Shadowlord
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Mar 23, 2012
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As I am hoping for a rekindling of the Mordheim spirit soon, I will enforce these new rules on my friends and give them a "playtest". I will also update the summaries page soon to see if I got everything. Any of you played any games recently in which you encountered "flaws"?
 

spafe

Executive Officer in charge of Hats
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Sorry, Its been almost a year since I've even played necro, mordheim has been 2-3 years I think :(
 

Underhiver

Juve
Apr 18, 2014
44
45
23
Terni
Hey guys, just jumped here, because I was looking for a better working version of the game. Did you notice of Coreheim? And also Mordheimer site have a section of customized and slightly upgraded rules. I can find some inspiring stuff in both of them... but still the problem is unsolved for me. Should we work more to fix it togheter?
 
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spafe

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Yeah that sounds like a great plan mate. If you've read through the thread, do you agree/disagree with conclusions above? also do you have any other bugbears that you think need amending?
 
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Underhiver

Juve
Apr 18, 2014
44
45
23
Terni
Sure, here we go:

About weapons: I don't like the -1 to hit for the offhand, removable with a skill. This don't solve the real problem. I am most oriented about giving the offhand strike no weapons bonus/malus, so it strikes at basic Str (thats because it's a last lunge and the bearer is concentrated on swinging his main weapon).

About shields: the +2 in HtH sound legit and good, but it must be combined with a slight buff on body armors too. With this buff only the shield provide a bonus in between light and heavy armor (i.e. +1 armor always and +2 half of the time), so it's cost must be half between those two. So we have the shield at 35gc ... we can say 30 because it removes the usage of one hand in HtH, but it's still high. If we don't change it this way, every warrior will go for it.

Slings: rise cost:eek:k - remove the double shot ;)

Basic weapons: I think basic 1hand weapons must all have the same cost, for example 10gc. For this cost you may choose one bonus. Parry and +Str are both balanced, but others are not... axes must have some good choice too (critical on 5+?) and I would rearrange morning star in some way, not sure about, but the un-parry-able rule fits very well for it.

On stick weapon (spear, halberds and flail) must have a parry, if used in both hands (on the lance, you may choose to do it or not).

Powder weapons may be slightly buffed... the strike first rule sound very good, but what you think of an automatic pinned result, even if the don't success to wound?

Mage spell must be selected like skills (he is studying and learning what he want after all...)

Some skills are inappropriate and overpowered compared to other. What I look most in this kind of games is the CHOICE, a balanced alternative that give you brainhache about thinking on the most effective one to fit in your warband.

Let's make few example:

(names may be different because I am reading the italian version ^^')

Fast shot: the model may shot twice if he don't moved this turn.
Sprint: the model may triple his movement if he is running on a straight line on a single height level.
Also, -1 Str on hit suffered in HtH sound more like a +1T, so a characteristic toss between abilities...

I can go on for long like this :)
 
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spafe

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Wow, okay. thats a lot of stuff there. So lets start with the top and work down.

Duel wielding you have to take into account the appeal of shield with them giving better protection. If your weapon would be at -1 to hit and you could get a shield for added protection then it might be enough to sway that way... equally how would that work with pistols, or paired weps such as fighting claws? It basically means that everyone will go shield when they can afford it and stick with a free knife up until then, closing off the option for (example) a pair of axes on a dwarf clansmen or a mercenary swordsmen with 2 swords...

I think the gist wasnt to up shields costs, but to lower armour down, so maybe 15 for light and 30 for heavy, making them more affordable. If you then said the shield was 20 or 15 then I think that would be balanced as it uses a hand up but gives protection. Have you found your gaming group taking lots of armour at its current costs? Personally I've almsot never seen any used as it was too expensive.

Before I tackle slings I will stay with relative armours and weapons. If armours and shields became more common the worth of an axe becomes greater. however by that logic I'm not sure if the club should give +1 armour as it counters the str increase a bit. If your not going to do that I could easily see them costing 8 or so. they are good but not as good as swords for that parry.

I like your way to balance 2 handed stick weapons with shield option, either extra save or a parry save. This I fully agree with and would love to see incorporated.

I like the auto pinned initally, but think it may well become too good. will have to playtest this a lot I think and see how it affects game play.

I think @Tulkas put that one forward in the first post with the mage being able to pick his spell. I cant fault this as mordheim allwos all other skill sets to be picked from.

I dont quite follow on the skills, are you saying some need to be rebalanced or that you propose new ones?

Lastly before I forget, slings, I think you are agreeing with what we have been saying about rise the costs... but do you think the double shot really needs to go? if so are they so different from the smaller bows?
 

Underhiver

Juve
Apr 18, 2014
44
45
23
Terni
Duel wielding you have to take into account the appeal of shield with them giving better protection. If your weapon would be at -1 to hit and you could get a shield for added protection then it might be enough to sway that way... equally how would that work with pistols, or paired weps such as fighting claws? It basically means that everyone will go shield when they can afford it and stick with a free knife up until then, closing off the option for (example) a pair of axes on a dwarf clansmen or a mercenary swordsmen with 2 swords...
I was just trowing in all the brainstormed ideas popped in my mind ^^' ... paired weapons may have a dedicated rule or so to still work in the old way. OR, also, how can sound to give a bonus if the fighter use a single weapon and a free hand? Reroll parries, 6+ unmodified dodge from better balance, +1 to hit?

I think the gist wasnt to up shields costs, but to lower armour down, so maybe 15 for light and 30 for heavy, making them more affordable. If you then said the shield was 20 or 15 then I think that would be balanced as it uses a hand up but gives protection. Have you found your gaming group taking lots of armour at its current costs? Personally I've almsot never seen any used as it was too expensive.
Totally agree, armours are expensive and hard to give to all fighters...

Before I tackle slings I will stay with relative armours and weapons. If armours and shields became more common the worth of an axe becomes greater. however by that logic I'm not sure if the club should give +1 armour as it counters the str increase a bit. If your not going to do that I could easily see them costing 8 or so. they are good but not as good as swords for that parry.
This is an hard point... I see too much difference between +1Str of maces, against -1 save of axes. By speaking of reality>game rules, I believe blunt weapons are more effective against armors, when cutting weapons make more damage as them lacerate the flesh... don't know how to solve this. On some version I readed maces are limited to +1 Str against models stunned, so when the enemy is laying down and you strike from above... pretty evocative but almost useless by rules ;P

I like your way to balance 2 handed stick weapons with shield option, either extra save or a parry save. This I fully agree with and would love to see incorporated.
Up then ;) waiting more feedback

I dont quite follow on the skills, are you saying some need to be rebalanced or that you propose new ones?
They need to be reworked a little, otherwise some are obvious choices...

Lastly before I forget, slings, I think you are agreeing with what we have been saying about rise the costs... but do you think the double shot really needs to go? if so are they so different from the smaller bows?
Speaking by rules and real life, I dont get the point of such a rudimental weapon can fire twice and that far... it requires a lot of effort to swing the cord and release it at the right moment. Double shot means potentially 2 wounds, that sounds a lot. The fact that the item is abused is a signal we must hardly hit on him with the nerf :)
 
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Nov 28, 2014
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Im starting a leage or going to try to and imm going to implment some of thea house rules ill post an update once we get going
 
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spafe

Executive Officer in charge of Hats
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I am happy to continue with ideas/help on this, but sadly lack the pdf'ing know how/skills to actually format an MCE
 

Tulkas

Mr. Shadowlord
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Mar 23, 2012
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Lets worry about gathering all the info and ideas and new rules and whatnots first, then we'll do it in a word file while we look for someone to bully into making it a pdf.
 
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Tulkas

Mr. Shadowlord
Mordheim Professor
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Mar 23, 2012
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Not really sure if I mentioned this one before but I was thinking of suggesting a strength increase for handguns (not pistols). S5 actually makes them interesting. Ofcourse my main reason for suggesting this is wanting to use my Marauder Thunderers in a WYSIWYG context. I also know my non handgun using friends will not see a need for this, therefor I would love to see it included in the MCE. Selfish, I know. Still love to hear your thoughts.