More Middenheimers Moseying to Mordheim

[rodtheworm]

Splitting this off from the miniatures and terrain thread.

Firstly, while I've played quite a lot of Necromunda, my experience in Mordheim runs to maybe 6-10 games? I ran a pretty successful Reiklander band over that time, but my friends were less keen on lots of bows and crossbows protected by just enough melee, and I was perhaps a bit too good at covering firing lanes (our teenager improvised terrain probably contributed to this).

I thought I'd start off with Middenheimers this time, as the Frostgrave Barbarians looked cool and the immediate strength bump for Captains/Champions looked nice - an early mosty-unparryable great weapon could be extremely dangerous, even if I expect they're probably the weakest of the three in the long run.

Anyway, this is what I came up with to begin:

Captain - Hammer, Bow (sword on model for show until a few crowns made)
Champion - Bill (counts as halberd)
Champion - Sword, Bow
Youngblood - Hammer
Young blood - Hammer

Henchmen group 1 - 2x Swordsmen, each with Axe (counting as Hammers until I make a few more crowns...) and Sword.

Henchmen group 2 - 3x "Swordsmen", each with Hammer or Mace (will be upgraded ASAP)

Henchmen group 3 - 2x Marksmen, each with Bow

(All obviously have their free Dagger too)

Total: 499 crowns

This starts me off with 12 models (close to being able to bump up a rout test threshold), maximum starting heroes, and I figure I should be able to upgrade some weapons after the first few games.

I have 4 ranged attackers for a bit of cover during the advance, then 8 of the 12 will be solid in melee (and the Youngbloods will do their best.

Once there, I have a couple of models getting 2x S4 attacks and one with 1x S5.to help deal with any high Toughness/armoured models.

Does this look OK? I'd want them to be competent, but I'm not interested in being highly optimised. I'd rather be fun to play against. Any advice would be gratefully received!

 

[Ben_S]

I know you're not interested in optimisation, but a common 'tactic' is to run henchmen in groups of one, to maximise chances of Lad's Got Talent. If you were to break them up, it might also mean that you could equip some of them as you want (since you wouldn't need to buy the same for everyone).

Also, unless you're using house rules to encourage armour, I'm not convinced axes are worth it.

 

[rodtheworm]

Thanks Ben, much appreciated!

I suppose I had put them into groups so that, if one became a hero or died, the group's advances would be maintained for the others - then again, Lad's Got Talent can only kick in once as I'm already starting at five heroes, so maybe that's worth the extra speed of getting that sixth hero?

Thinking about it more, it definitely seems like a better choice to begin - it gives more options on advances, and groups can then be built up/specialised based on the advances rolled eg. The marksman who rolls an early BS upgrade might be the start of a longbowmen/handgunners group, while the one who rolls Strength and Attacks could get a blunderbuss and provide close support before getting stuck in with the melee specialists.

Thanks for the advice!


Regarding axes... yes, hammers are probably more effective, but axes look cool and everyone having a hammer is boring!

 

[Ben_S]

groups can then be built up/specialised based on the advances rolled

It can be tricky to add to an experienced group. But I don't think you really lose anything having many small groups. It does mean that, if you roll a good advance, only one person gets it (rather than several). But it also means that if you roll a bad advance.

I suppose more groups = more rolls = more likely to average out. If everyone was one big group, then they could all get a good roll or a bad roll, so more swingy.

 

[spafe]

it isnt too hard to add to an existing group when they are one or 2 advances in (from memory you get 2d6 worth of xp to add, so if they are at 5 xp, odds are good you have enough on 2d6 to add an extra to a single model to make the most of a good advance.

bit of a side note, but does influence the warband equipment. Are you (as a group) using the common(ish) house rules of -1 to hit if duel wielding, and the extra sv for hw&shield combo? There are a couple of other common ones but its been a hot minute since I last played mordheim so cant remember them off the top of my head.

I also might be misremembering, but I thoguht swordsmen got a bonus for being armed (solely) with swords, reroll to hit of something. Are you nulfiying this bonus by going sword and axe/hammer?

 

[rodtheworm]

Thanks, folks,

I don't actually have a gaming group yet, so I guess house rules are up for discussion? They both sound sensible, though - I had a read through CoreHeim the other day, and I think those sound familiar from that.

I also like the idea of a "hooked" rule, which would allow things like axes and halberd to sacrifice an attack(/successful attack, depending on how balance feels) to remove the shield bonus from a model for the turn. Not sure how it would be costed, though.

It might pair well with the rule from Ravenfeast that gives an armour bonus for being in a shield wall with other models, and could promote a combined arms approach rather than tending towards arming everyone with a most powerful option. I also quite like Ravenfeast's ability for polearms to strike at ~1" distance, allowing a row of spears to reach past the front rank.

Lots of ideas...


The swordsman rule is as follows:
"Expert Swordsmen: Swordsmen are so skilled with their weapons that they may re-roll any failed hits when charging. Note that this only applies when they are armed with normal swords, and not with double handed swords or any other weapons."

It could be better worded, but my reading would be as follows:
1) The re-roll only applies to swords, therefore my guys with hammer/knife definitely wouldn't get it. Those are partly for not being able to buy everyone swords, partly because +10crowns buys +1WS, which seems valuable. The sword re-rolls on the charge are just a bonus.
2) Double handed swords are especially called out, presumably as these are great weapons in the rules, which is a separate category.
3) When armed with two weapons, my understanding is that you are supposed to alternate attacks equally between weapons - I would probably roll two colours of dice to represent the sword/hammer, and only the sword would get to re-roll misses.

There is definitely a degree of interpretation, but I don't think the intent was to invalidate it for sword attacks if the guy is armed with anything else *as well as a sword*, else the free dagger could invalidate it for everyone.

 

[Ben_S]

The swordsman rule is as follows:
"Expert Swordsmen: Swordsmen are so skilled with their weapons that they may re-roll any failed hits when charging. Note that this only applies when they are armed with normal swords, and not with double handed swords or any other weapons."

That is, indeed, unclear. You could well argue that they get to re-roll all attacks, so long as they have a sword. I think that would be more natural than the assumption that some other weapon cancels their ability. But re-rolling the sword attacks only makes sense.

3) When armed with two weapons, my understanding is that you are supposed to alternate attacks equally between weapons - I would probably roll two colours of dice to represent the sword/hammer, and only the sword would get to re-roll misses.

I'm also rather rusty, but IIRC you can make all but one of your attacks with your 'main' weapon and only need to use the other for the +1 attack. But unless you get characteristic advances, it doesn't make much difference. Normally it's just 1+1 attacks, so one with each.

 

[rodtheworm]

I guess it would just need to be something that's agreed upon among the group - I hadn't considered the "re-roll all attacks, so long as they have a sword", but that also does seem like it could be a valid reading. Definitely a grey area.

Alternating attacks could well be me misremembering - I'm fairly sure (Original) Necromunda has any hits alternated, so I could be confusing with that. I'll have to check the book.

 

[Ben_S]

I hadn't considered the "re-roll all attacks, so long as they have a sword", but that also does seem like it could be a valid reading. Definitely a grey area.

To be clear, I very much doubt that's the intention. I'd play as re-roll any misses with the sword only (but you can still have an additional weapon). But the rules are often quite loosely written and sometimes just presuppose certain things as 'obvious' (or familiar from WFB).

 

[rodtheworm]

This ended up being the starting roster:

The Blackhammer Bandits

Captain with hammer, sword, bow
Champion with sword, bow
Champion with sword, hammer
Youngblood with sword, hammer
Youngblood with 2x hammer
2x Warriors with hammer, dagger
2x Swordsmen (1x sword and shield, 1x halberd)
3x Marksmen with bow, club, dagger

The opening game against Witch Hunters had ups and downs.

On the good side, they captured 2 out of three Wyrdstone counters, successfully prevented any heroes going out of action while taking two Witch Hunters OOA, the Witch Hunters routed first, both Youngbloods levelled (both gaining a skill), and they came out with a payday of 110 crowns plus a straggler to help improve their next exploration phase.

On the down side, they lost the swordsman with the sword and shield and one of the warriors, while the Witch Hunters kept both henchmen and rolled Full Recovery and Bitter Enmity on the serious injuries chart, meaning they made out better financially due to not needing to replace anyone!


Things I learned:
Warhounds are vicious and cheap, and Flagellants with flails are horrifyingly effective. Three of my OOAs were to a warhound/flagellant tag team.


Anyway for game 2 I currently have 10 people to their 12, and have 110 crowns to work with.

I have two thoughts:
1) Double down on ranged, buy two crossbowmen @50ea for a bit of S4 and a bow for my other Champion, then focus fire in a slow advance. Would be better with Reiklanders, but I have what I have.
2) Buy 3 melee guys (probably 2 more hammer guys and another halberd for more S4) to give some cheaper charge absorption and strong counter-charge. Not sure if this is playing into the WH strengths, though, as 15 crown Wardogs are both cheaper/more expendable and higher M/WS/S/I than hammer warriors...

 

[spafe]

depending on your terrain, going for a bit of a castle up tactic with 2 crossbows is probably a pretty good strategy against WH.

Long term strat, hit their heroes, they are the weakest part of their warband, and it hinders their campaign income. Sounds like you had a good first game though.

 

[Ben_S]

Disclaimer: I don't have much experience of playing Mordheim, so this is largely theory.

The dogs are pretty good for their cost. I assume they have low Ld though, so you might be able to scare them somehow. (Try getting that Ogre!) Also, his warband should be fairly small, so it won't take too many casualties to force rout tests. And the dogs count towards that.

As for flail guys, they're only really scary for the first round of combat. So, ideally, you want someone who can survive that. (Again, an Ogre might help...) Then you can pile reinforcements in if you have them.

 

[Hobo86]

the crossbow idea is a good idea.

a blunderbuss (or a few) could also work
you could give your swordsmen double swords to be able to re-roll failed parries and helmets are always usefull