N18 Mounted / Seriously Injured

[Deathwing1983]

If a Mounted model passes it's Initiative check not to fall when hit by a ranged attack but is then Seriously Injured by said attack, are they Knocked Down?

Does a Seriously Injured unit that was Mounted move half of its regular movement characteristic (IE around 2") when Crawling or does it move half of its mounted movement (IE around 4") when Crawling?

 

[Amarok]

If a Mounted model passes it's Initiative check not to fall when hit by a ranged attack but is then Seriously Injured by said attack, are they Knocked Down?

Does a Seriously Injured unit that was Mounted move half of its regular movement characteristic (IE around 2") when Crawling or does it move half of its mounted movement (IE around 4") when Crawling?

1. They are down no matter what. It's like being seriously injured while having nerves of steel skill

2. Open to interpretation, we are playing that case as half of their move without mount because they couldn't stand up and ride the bike. But RAW, it could be half of their mounted movement. Mounted condition bring so many headaches (-1 movement injury is applied? Sprint or run&gun skills are usable when mounted? Can bikers do move + move when you need respirator under certain weather conditions... And so on)

 

[TopsyKretts]

1. They are down no matter what. It's like being seriously injured while having nerves of steel skill

So that's effectively 1-2 chances of knocking down a mount per hit?

2. Open to interpretation, we are playing that case as half of their move without mount because they couldn't stand up and ride the bike. But RAW, it could be half of their mounted movement. Mounted condition bring so many headaches (-1 movement injury is applied? Sprint or run&gun skills are usable when mounted? Can bikers do move + move when you need respirator under certain weather conditions... And so on)

I agree this is a headache RAW, but can speculate into RAI:

• Seriously injured movement could go both ways (IMO). It could be an animal or mechanical, would either be seriously injured too? Would a horse crawl faster than human? Can a bike crawl at all?
• Movement injury probably shouldn't be applied (huge buff to mount), because it is the fighter that is injured. The mount could be replaced (or not), either case it ain't injured because you could transfer it to a different fighter, and would that fighter suffer the penalty only when mounted? This requires book keeping for injured mounts, and then only for movement injuries? What about initiative injures, some mounts affect that stat too.
• Skills (Sprint / Run & Gun) ideally wouldn't synergize with mount because it represents the fighter's ability to run/move, not the mount. A fastt runner won't ride a dirtbike faster than a squat.
• For double move in poor air conditions, could go both ways...

 

[PalatineKatinka]

1. They are down no matter what. It's like being seriously injured while having nerves of steel skill

They are Pinned ('Pinned & Seriously' Injured technically) but 'Knocked Down' is the rule that causes Mounted fighters to take an extra hit based on their last movement whne they fail the Iniative check to avoid being Pinned when shot. Are you saying that a Mounted fighter that is Seriously Injured effectively auto-fails the Iniative test and takes an extra hit?

By my understanding of RAW they should only take the extra hit if the Initiative test is failed. Being Pinned doesn't cause Knocked Down, it's the other way round. Mounted fighters aren't Pinned in the normal manner when shot and instead being Knocked Down causes being Pinned. Forced Pinning from other sources than being shot doesn't interact with the Knocked Down rules. Also, by my reading of RAW, immunity to Pinning for any reason does not prevent the extra hit from being Knocked Down, it'll only prevent the Pinned status that comes after being Knocked Down.

 

[Deathwing1983]

I understood it as per Amarok:

1. They take an Initiative test to avoid being pinned by a ranged attack
2. However, if they are Seriously Injured then they are pinned anyway (just like someone Seriously Injured with Nerves of Steel would be)
3. If they become pinned, they are Knocked Down because they have basically fallen off the mount onto their back

However, following PalatineKatinka I could see it as:

1. They take an Initiative test to avoid being pinned by a ranged attack
2. If they are Seriously Injured then they are pinned (just like someone Seriously Injured with Nerves of Steel would be) but due to passing the Initiative test they remain on their mount (e.g. they are lying horizontal across their mount)
3. Following this point of view, they would not take a Knocked Down hit
4. Also, they would presumably then be able to Crawl based on their mount's movement because they are still mounted (not crawling exactly but perhaps guiding their mount with some difficulty due to injury)

The actual rulebook text in the Ash Wastes book says "A Mounted fighter does not automatically become Pinned when hit by a ranged attack. Instead, they immediately make an Initiative check[...] If this check is passed, the fighter does not become Pinned. If this check is failed, they are Knocked Down". There is a separate paragraph stating "When a Mounted fighter is Knocked Down, they immediately suffer an automatic hit"...

 

[PalatineKatinka]

The actual rulebook text in the Ash Wastes book says "A Mounted fighter does not automatically become Pinned when hit by a ranged attack. Instead, they immediately make an Initiative check[...] If this check is passed, the fighter does not become Pinned. If this check is failed, they are Knocked Down". There is a separate paragraph stating "When a Mounted fighter is Knocked Down, they immediately suffer an automatic hit"...

Yeah, this is the bit key to my interpretation (and a little bit after the bit about taking a hit). The first sentence establishes that Knocked Down is a change to the normal sequence of a ranged attack, replacing the 'Hit Fighters Become Pinned' part. Passing an Initiative check avoids avoids the normal Pinning, failing an Initiative check leads to being Knocked Down. Being Knocked Down inflicts a hit and then "Once a Mounted fighter has been Knocked Down, they become Prone and Pinned." (this is why I said being Pinned doesn't cause Knocked Down, instead being Knocked Down causes being Pinned.)

 

[TopsyKretts]

Are you saying that if hit and knocked down, it could potentially ignore pinned and therefore stand up again?

 

[PalatineKatinka]

Are you saying that if hit and knocked down, it could potentially ignore pinned and therefore stand up again?

RAW, yes. For example a Lobo-Slave Ogryn on a Dirtbike (I just love that visual) would likely fail their Initiative check and be Knocked Down and take a hit but, if not Seriously Injured or Out of Action, would not be placed Pinned and Prone. I wouldn't describe it as standing up again though, more like they had a momentary loss of control that could cause harm but then they regained control.

RAI, no idea...

 

[TopsyKretts]

I would say they get pinned and back up again because the knocked down damage is a result of crashing into the ground? RAI I think ignore pinning would either prevent knocked down, or mounted fighters can't ignore pinning no matter what.

 

[Amarok]

They are Pinned ('Pinned & Seriously' Injured technically) but 'Knocked Down' is the rule that causes Mounted fighters to take an extra hit based on their last movement whne they fail the Iniative check to avoid being Pinned when shot. Are you saying that a Mounted fighter that is Seriously Injured effectively auto-fails the Iniative test and takes an extra hit?

By my understanding of RAW they should only take the extra hit if the Initiative test is failed. Being Pinned doesn't cause Knocked Down, it's the other way round. Mounted fighters aren't Pinned in the normal manner when shot and instead being Knocked Down causes being Pinned. Forced Pinning from other sources than being shot doesn't interact with the Knocked Down rules. Also, by my reading of RAW, immunity to Pinning for any reason does not prevent the extra hit from being Knocked Down, it'll only prevent the Pinned status that comes after being Knocked Down.

I can understand the reasoning being restrictive with the wording, but it only leads us to non-intuitive results. The "knocked down" rule heavily implies you fall down (pinned) and get damage because of that.

With such a restrictive RAW interpretation, as it has been discussed in this thread, it could happen that a fighter doesn't fall down from the mount (nerves of steel, lobo-slave ogryn... ) but still get a hit for being "knocked down" when failing the initiative. Or the other way around, being seriously injured in the most spectacular way while riding and not being "knocked down" because of passing an initiative test.

Ash Wastes ruleset has a lot of inconsistencies and weird interactions (Necromunda trademark) but it seems to look for cinematic actions: ramming, side on colisions, nitro burners and so on. That's why we play seriously injured also as being knocked down.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

RAW, yes. For example a Lobo-Slave Ogryn on a Dirtbike (I just love that visual) would likely fail their Initiative check and be Knocked Down and take a hit but, if not Seriously Injured or Out of Action, would not be placed Pinned and Prone. I wouldn't describe it as standing up again though, more like they had a momentary loss of control that could cause harm but then they regained control.

RAI, no idea...

I vote Lobo slave ogryns on dirtbikes should be allowed what ever anti pinning rules possible as long as the model is hilarious.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

I would say they get pinned and back up again because the knocked down damage is a result of crashing into the ground?

Clearly you have never been hit by a ballistic pigeon in the chest while traveling at 60mph in a motorcycle...

 

[Amarok]

Clearly you have never been hit by a ballistic pigeon in the chest while traveling at 60mph in a motorcycle...

African or european pigeon?

 

[TopsyKretts]

Clearly you have never been hit by a ballistic pigeon in the chest while traveling at 60mph in a motorcycle...

No I stick to insects (or they stick to me rather)

 

[PalatineKatinka]

With such a restrictive RAW interpretation, as it has been discussed in this thread, it could happen that a fighter doesn't fall down from the mount (nerves of steel, lobo-slave ogryn... ) but still get a hit for being "knocked down" when failing the initiative. Or the other way around, being seriously injured in the most spectacular way while riding and not being "knocked down" because of passing an initiative test.

I am fine with the idea that people who are Seriously Injured can avoid additional injury through an Initiative test, or rather that they already avoided it since the test comes before resolving the hit. I'm also fine with Escher Cutters still having to test to see if they are Knocked Down even though they "can never fall".