N18 Moving weapons to Stash

Discussion in 'Rules, Mechanics & Skills' started by UncleFester, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    Rulebook, page 95, Section “Distribute Equipment” says:
    …no fighter can discard a weapon once added to their fighter cards as described in the Gangs of the Underhive book.
    But where does it say that in the GOTU book? Under Gang Composition rules (pg. 11) it says Juves and Gangers cannot be given new weapons if it would take them over the allotted 3, but it does not say a weapon could not be moved to the Gang Stash.

    Also, the Trading Post section on page 116 has this confusing quote:
    Should any fighter purchase new weapons or Wargear, old weapons or Wargear may be added to the Stash.​

    “Old weapons” may be specific to the salvaged weapons of a dead fighter, which that section specifically talks about, but it’s not clear. Do they really intend for us to track the source of each weapon and only allow weapons claimed off of dead (or retired) fighters to be moved to the Stash?

    I feel the intention is that weapons cannot be removed from fighter’s cards as the Rulebook quote is explicit. Is it just a mistake of omission in the Gangs book, or am I missing the rule somewhere? Or can we really remove weapons as stated on page 116?
  2. TopsyKretts

    TopsyKretts Gang Hero

    This is one of those topics which have been heavily discussed for 1 year, and it sure doesn't stop after the "revised" compilation books are out!

    I need simple and clear instructions to play this game, so with the confusing and contradictory examples you show, why not just move whatever you want to and from whoever you want? This was part of what was fun with original Necromunda. I'm not gonna accept this can't be done anymore, I need a reason to why. Why would restricting moving equipment improve the game? Or is it a rule to simply improve miniature sales instead?
    kiratdeluxe and UncleFester like this.
  3. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    I think the RAI is that you cannot discard weapons from a fighter. This is how it worked in the previous version, and the compendium mostly seem to assume it's still the case (on top of the rulebook p95 you already mentioned there is also GotU p11 (states that you can discard wargear but says no such thing for weapons) and GotU p138 (in the rules for master-crafted weapon: "Note that the fighter may replace a weapon with which they are already equipped with a master-crafted version of that weapon, and that the original may be discarded and added to the gang's Stash. This is an exception to the norm.")

    I'm gonna assume that the brown box in GotU p116 is simply wrong.
    Vonvilkee likes this.
  4. Chat it over with your group and house rule it. I doubt anyone would care!
    I think the intention was to limit the pressure to convert painted figures for WYSIWYG
    mazgruk, TopsyKretts and cronevald like this.
  5. TopsyKretts

    TopsyKretts Gang Hero

    Yeah that could be the intention, but it doesn't even make sense there. I got all my minis painted up final, there is no going back, no cutting, converting or swapping weapons. Got too many unfinished gangs in queue, can't afford any additional work for those already done. And I'm still swapping wargear and weapons freely between fighters!

    Luckily me and my friends I play with have played Necromunda a long time, so we can fairly easily dismiss useless rules and stick with what improves the game. There was never an issue swapping items in old Necromunda. For sure it's not gonna be an issue now!
    kiratdeluxe and Blondie-locks like this.
  6. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Hero

    I'm glad you had no problems swapping but with out random advancements for every one it is a change that can be abused. Even back in the day one guy I played with (not for long) swapped stuff all over the place to maximize. Now the goal is to just equip gangers and forget em. Champs, Juves, and Leaders are your gang of the past probably why they increased our access to them.

    I only remember a couple of guys from my 90s gang the rest were just bullet sponges any way so I actually really like buy a ganger give him a gun maybe a pistol and wait to see if he really deserves anything else. If he becomes a specialist and you really want to change his gear the is your reason to turn him champion. If you allow swapping willy nilly and play long enough all of the gangs will become very similar due to easier access.

    Random rare trades was aggravating but necessary back in the day. My group house ruled rare values like in mordhiem but eventually the van saar ruined the campaign due to skill access. Now you have to choose short game or long game with those gangers equipment wise. I'm super excited to see master crafted weapons as this gives you a way to easily upgrade ganger and keep his role the same.
    MusingWarboss likes this.
  7. MusingWarboss

    MusingWarboss Gang Hero

    I think I'll agree with @Vonvilkee here. It's mostly going to come down to personal preference. I quite like the new system but mostly for the opposite reason Blondie-locks states here:

    That is such a rare occurrence I can't see why anyone would put it in the rules. Yet strangely there was the old "put down the clippers" box out in N17.

    Quite frankly I think it's the opposite. Restricting equipment benefits people who like to convert and kitbash, as you only have to make one model now. It coupled with WYSIWYG also sells more models as you need more bodies for more weapon options.

    Again, personal preference but I can't think why anyone would willingly want to trash a perfectly good model by cutting it up after its painted and done, just because you brought a new gun....?? Madness.
    In classic Necromunda, if anything, people just swapped models out. Again, personally I don't like that as it places the equipment on a higher level then the character so you may as well just play with a generic person shape and stick some guns to the base. What are we attempting to roleplay here, interesting characters or a gun catalogue?

    In classic Necromunda (again personal anecdote) I pretty much stuck with the same guns I initially equipped fighter with, merely adding some extras over time, like wargear or a pistol. There was rarely a need to change unless you had some calamitous advancement rolls and your shotgunner suddenly became a dual pistol wielding ninja H2H assassin overnight (obviously been taking evening classes between fights).
    Other than that it was Juves advancing into gangers.

    Maybe a leader got a bit of better kit, like a melta gun.

    So in the new rules these scenarios are dealt with. You can tailor your fighter advancements, Juves get to swap up, champs and leaders can have multiple equipment options.

    The reason you could in the old game is simply because the advancements were so random. I don't see a need to in the new one for your gangers at all... They're just henchmen, goons, expendable assets backing up the heroes of the piece.

    To the OP: you shouldn't swap as the rules suggest that's not what was intended but ultimately the choice is up to you... Why do you want to? Do you need to? Did you choose your initial starting gear poorly? Bad advancement choices?? Are you going to be adhering to WYSIWYG strictly? Because the more you switch about the more tiresome that rule requirement becomes.
    TabulaRasa and Vonvilkee like this.
  8. UnderhiveBerzerker

    Tribe Council

    Note that only leaders and champs can have mastercrafted weapons.

    I don't like the Put away the clippers rule from a rpg aspect, but some how I think it works well in the mechanic of the game.
    Remember wargear is still freely tradeable among all fighters so you have some wiggle room.
    Gangers are henchmen, living a quit life as cannonfodder in the underhive. Leaders and champs are the real stars of the show and the Equipment set rules are fun for random selection.
    Vonvilkee likes this.
  9. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Hero

    Where is this a rule? I looked GotU pg11 they can take wargear status items/ extravagant goods are wargear, pg 123. Never mind I found it pg 138... boo oh well my dreams of out shooting van saar with venators out the gate is ruined, really it is prolly for the best reroll to hit its pretty powerful on super cheap weapons like Lasguns and auto guns.
    #9 Vonvilkee, Jan 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  10. Forward Assist

    Forward Assist Gang Champion
    Yak Comp 2nd Place

    I know this is re-treading old ground but it makes no sense to me that a champion, after gaining experience and hunting out rare weaponary, would go 'Nah, today I'm going to carry a bare-bones stubgun and fighting knife over this bolt pistol and power axe I worked hard for...'

    Multiple fighter cards are pretty nonsensical to me.
    UncleFester likes this.
  11. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    Yeah, I didn't mean to dredge up the whole debate again. I was just wondering what the understood intention was in N18.

    Previously, we used to allow the free movement of weapons in and out of the Stash. (With the caveat that it was frowned on to move a weapon to a new fighter for 1 battle because your Heavy-weapon guy went into recovery.)

    For now, with the N18 system, we are going to try to limit the movement of weapons from a fighter's card, with the exception that a fighter may completely revamp his gear upon promotion for exactly the reason that @Forward Assist states.
    TopsyKretts and Forward Assist like this.
  12. enyoss

    enyoss Gang Hero
    Tribe Council

    Being forced to keep fighter cards with old equipment is a bit silly. Got to agree with you there!

    But multiple fighter cards can be useful. My next gang leader and champions will all have a second virtually identical card with hazard suit instead of mesh armour, specifically to be used when Cawdor are abroad! Suit up before straying into their territory...
  13. MusingWarboss

    MusingWarboss Gang Hero

    Are you talking about a Juve to Champion promotion?

    Because the fighter cards and equipment are entirely chosen by you, the player. So if you choose to have a load out that’s below par ... it’s your choice, don’t complain, fix it!!

    You can have the same stuff on more than one card. It’s just you choosing how to equip from their own personal stash. So have two cards with a bolt gun and power axe, then use your third slot to have a backup Stubgun on one and fighting knife for another. Perhaps that fighting knife will come in handy in a mission where you’d prefer to take down an opponent without risking an ammo fail.

    I know what you’re getting at but really the vast majority of multi card option would be for extra fancy kit on already decent fighters. The lowly Juve kit then can be spread however you wish as backup stuff.

    Multiple fighter cards aren’t nonsensical at all. They offer you tactical variety by BYPASSING the normal limit of weapons which can be owned by a fighter.

    Random selection however, is nonsensical.
  14. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    I don't want to speak for @Forward Assist but per RAW, once you give a fighter a weapon, they never can discard it. So, if you give a Juve any weapons, which I'm sure almost everyone does, he will still have them when he becomes a Champion. Since Juves can only have Pistol and Close Combat weapons, neither of which can be over 20 credits, you might be looking at something like an Autogun and an Axe. Later, you upgrade him with a Bolt Pistol. He now has an Autogun, Axe and Bolt Pistol.

    Now, he promotes to Champion and has no weapon restrictions, so you buy him a Heavy Bolter. But, per RAW, he can't get rid of any of his other weapons, so you have to make him another fighter card. You equip him with the Heavy Bolter and ... whatever - the Axe. He now has two equipment sets:
    1) Bolt Gun, Autogun, and Axe
    2) Heavy Bolter, and Axe
    Again, per RAW, you can't get rid of that first equipment set. In the case of a scenario with Random Selection, you must randomly select an equipment set. Which means, your Heavy Bolter Champion might just decide to take a pair of pistols to this fight.

    That's what's silly and nonsensical, IMO.

    You can change Wargear freely. You don't need another equipment set to change armor from fight to fight.

    EDIT: Or are you suggesting you can change it into 3 equipment sets:
    1) Heavy Bolter, Autogun
    2) Heavy Bolter, Boltgun
    3) Heavy Bolter, Axe
    Hmmm.... I'd have to ready the rules over again to check that.
  15. Forward Assist

    Forward Assist Gang Champion
    Yak Comp 2nd Place

    @UncleFester has summed up what I mean pretty well. I can't 'fix' being forced to keep the same weapons allocated to any fighter at gang creation without house-ruling. Like you point out, with random selection you have a chance that during a campaign your more experienced and better equipped fighter just randomly decides not to bother taking his better gear (tailored with/to advancements along the way) but opts to carry his inferior weapons from gang creation. Even being able to spread this inferior kit out over multiple cards just increases the chance of not having the right tools.

    Doesn't make sense to me.
  16. UncleFester

    UncleFester Ganger

    I feel I should start off by saying I think the RAW is junk - the whole reason I'm talking about it is because I think the rule, as written, is silly. So I am in no way defending the rule.

    I would say that's a good "massage" of the rule, but it's not quite in-line with the strict RAW. The rule we are given (Rulebook p95) says you can't remove a weapon once it's been added to "the card". So, taking that literally, once you have the card with the Stub Gun and Knife that fighter must always have a fighter card with the Stub Gun and Knife on it. You could add a third weapon - but you could never remove one already there. So, after you get the Boltgun, you would have a card with Stub Gun, Knife, Boltgun. Then, when you get the Power Sword - assuming you're a Champion now - you could make a second card with BoltGun & Power Sword and maybe leave the third slot open for a Special weapon TBD. However, you must still have the Stub Gun, Boltgun, Axe card.

    Again, I think it is silly - but that's why we're having this conversation. I agree with @TopsyKretts - it does not improve the game, and anyone who plays should house-rule it with an alternative they deem acceptable.
  17. anscarii

    anscarii Juve

    In my opinion this rule dosnt help to the game except for avoiding swap weapons of soldiers in recovery. The solution ive found is that fighters should have the posibility of sell his weapons. Like this you still avoid the swaping fest while you avoid being stuck with the same weapon to the end of the days
    Vonvilkee likes this.
  18. I don’t even see why swapping is bad. Everyone has their price. In Firefly Jayne tried to swap vera, his *very favourite gun”. Why not pretend that plasma pistol got staked on a poker game when creds were short...
    This is probably why I should download inquisimunda.
  19. anscarii

    anscarii Juve

    Its not bad per se. Its a complication to record all that swapping and reduces the impact of fighters getting into recovery. And fluffwise fits that in hive cities environments fighters cherish their weapons to the level that dont want anyone to borrow it.
  20. Trafalgar Law

    Trafalgar Law Gang Hero

    I don't buy that sorry. You don't get so attached to your stubgun that you wouldn't trade it for a boltpistol.

    Swapping doesn't happen that often anyway in my experience of oldcromunda campaigns, usually only on promotion to ganger or if they get some weird increases (not an issue now). It's more usual to get a weapon upgrade and then move the old weapon to stash or sell it. The record keeping was hardly onorous.

    If you're worried about someone swapping guns around from characters in recovery, then restrict that.

    The extra fighter weapon cards are an ok idea, but are ruined by random selection in some scenarios and the fact that the heavy stubber you're not using this game still adds to your gang rating.
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