N17 N17 Community FAQ Discussion [archived]

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Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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STAFF: This thread is being archived. This discussion pertains to the original 2017 of Necromunda: Underhive. New discussion on the 2018 Compendium N18 can be found here.

Welcome to the YakTribe Community FAQ Discussion thread, originally moved from The Sump.


Our aim here is to correct the rules issues which have been either ignored by the official FAQ, confused further by the FAQ, or are generally accepted to be mistakes. Join in, have your say, make N17 a clearer and better game!

Issues here will be dealt with by the YakTribe community, independently of GW's rulings. GW FAQ rulings (in the rare occasion that they're clear enough to merit it) will replace the YakTribe ones in the interest of maintaining parity with the official rules.

This is not a rewrite of core mechanics, nor is it the N17 Community Edition, though it may well go on to influence/form the basis of it. The aim is to clarify and correct - not to entirely rework. You may have a convoluted and confusing houserule that replaces Toxin in its entirety - this is not the place for that, save it for N17CE - this is more a "the GW FAQ version of Toxin is correct in that it replaces the wound roll, but you still get an Armour Save" kind of thread.

This thread can be used to discuss minor issues that can be sorted out easily (clear mistakes for example). There will be other threads to discuss/vote on bigger issues such as the 1" rule when charging.

The latest version of the YAQ is available for download here.



Original Sump post follows:
N17 is, at it's heart, a very good ruleset with great promise.

It wouldn't even take much work to sort the majority of N17 problems. A huge number of them could be solved in an afternoon if someone with a modicum of authority in GW said, clearly and concisely, "When charging you must be able to make it all the way to base contact using your move to be engaged, toxin allows armour saves, charge targets must be declared, greade launcher price does not include the greandes" etc etc.

I firmly believe the first version of the N17 rulebook (or at very least a community backed FAQ) could be out before Gang War 3 if we gave it a shot, and I'm genuinely looking forward to this process kicking off, as I'm getting sick of GW's fluffy and unclear rules clarifications.

If someone needs to try and interpret what you meant in your own damn FAQ, as opposed to what you actually wrote, you completely f***ed it up.
 
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Thorgor

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@Chamberlain: depending on how well they manage to sell the first wave of Neomunda's products, there may very well be more. If they do the oultanders gangs, I sure hope the accompanying minis will be plastic (I need some plastic Pit Slaves in my life). And of course, it means Gang War 6, 7, 8 etc. will also be a thing.
And then (18 months from now), they may even add some new and previously unseen things.
And it's not like N17 will become abandonware the moment they stop publishing official rules for it. How many years will we have to wait before we can use the IP and distribute free rules with no fear of a C&D order?

@Stoof: I've pretty much all the questions listed by now. All we need are the answers, and most of them should be obvious and take only one or two words.
 

Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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So it begins! :D The issue we have with kicking it off right away, great though it is, is that we don't have the full picture without Gang War 3,4,5,8,27 etc etc. But I reckon we would fix some of the core issues with community consensus right away.

So, there's an "official" FAQ thread already. I guess we should have a seperate one clearly marked as the Community FAQ? We can easily hammer out the obvious things with little excessive discussion (stub guns are pistols, and dum-dums can be used in close combat for example). But I imagine polls might be in order for "the 1" thing" and maybe a few others?

I've played a good few games and can play more easily either alone or with chums, so I have a moderate amount of experience with N17 already and can playtest things.
 

Thorgor

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So, there's an "official" FAQ thread already. I guess we should have a seperate one clearly marked as the Community FAQ? We can easily hammer out the obvious things with little excessive discussion (stub guns are pistols, and dum-dums can be used in close combat for example). But I imagine polls might be in order for "the 1" thing" and maybe a few others?
Yes, I think a consensus will be very quickly reach for about 80% of the questions I have. Those are mostly just asking for clarification on obvious errors.
For the rest, we can try to reach a consensus through debate and, if it fails, votes.
 

Daniel36

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So I guess one can't really do a community edition of the rules yet, as the product is in production, but here is a crazy idea.

Why not make a Community FAQ/Errata? It seems to me like the most glaring issues that are described here all have a pretty universally accepted "fix". One could even call them the Yak House Rules.

I cannot imagine prospective new player that would not accept a couple of house rules to make the game flow better.
 

Trafalgar Law

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I think we should be safe with a community FAQ/Errata. So long as you still need to buy the official rules to use it I'm not sure they would have much grounds for complaint.

I'm more than happy to help with this. The question for me is how far do we go? Do we just stick to fixing the issues with rules and weapon profiles or do we actually make changes to the core rules and campaign system?
 

Chamberlain

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And it's not like N17 will become abandonware the moment they stop publishing official rules for it. How many years will we have to wait before we can use the IP and distribute free rules with no fear of a C&D order?
That's easy to work around. Copyright doesn't apply to mechanics, so it just means rewriting paragraphs in our own words. As for using the trademarked type items like words like Necromunda, Escher, Cawdor, etc., we can likely be fine if we follow the lead of previous projects and things like "In the Emperor's Name," the NetEpic people's work and stuff like that.

And I actually do think it'll effectively be abandonware quite soon. They'll have the next "new" specialist game (the titanicus game in 8mm? something else?) and Necromunda will get less stuff published for it than bloodbowl currently does.

Worst case scenario is we end up with a community upgrade document that is like a FAQ plus. GW can't prevent anyone from publishing house rules.
 

Tiny

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I think we should be safe with a community FAQ/Errata. So long as you still need to buy the official rules to use it I'm not sure they would have much grounds for complaint.
This. At the end of the day, a good community FAQ makes their product sell better. Nothing illegal about publishing house rules for a game.
 

Thorgor

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The question for me is how far do we go? Do we just stick to fixing the issues with rules and weapon profiles or do we actually make changes to the core rules and campaign system?
Good question.
Maybe do both, separately? Have the community FAQ fix everything that is needed for the game to even work, the obvious mistakes, the inconsistencies, etc. and then have a collection of suggested house rules for things that technically work but not the way we want them to? (which is, incidentally, what the Handbook project is striving to do)
 

Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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I would fix issues, but not alter core rules or campaign information (beyond, for example, correcting the order of the advances which we're pretty sure is wrong), because we don't yet have all the rules.

FAQ we can kick off and fix problems. Correcting or reworking entire swathes of campaign rules comes with the N17CE and can't realistically start until we actually have all the rules.

@spafe @Malo, we started branching off from the Sump into new discussion about a Community FAQ a few posts above (#214/215) - can we get this split out into the Rules section with a title along the lines of "N17 Community FAQ Discussion" please? Thank you!
 
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Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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Thank you kind sir!

...Now then, which brave soul wants to start hitting things with the fix hammer?

Stubguns and Dum Dum bullets have the Pistol trait.

...there. Bang! One down! :LOL:
 
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Thorgor

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Here are the questions from my list that I think can be easily answered:

As modified by the FAQ, the Charge action now forces a charging fighter to move into base contact and engage a Seriously injured fighter if they move within 1" of them. However, Seriously Injured fighters can't become engaged. Is this an error?
=> It's an error. I've no idea why the changed 'Pinned' for 'Prone' in this sentence.

The rules for Unstoppable currently state that "if they do not have any flesh wounds and the result is 4 or more, roll one additional dice for their recovery check", is this correct as it means that the character is more likely to go Out of Action which seems opposed to the intent of the skill? Should it say "roll one additional dice for their recovery check and pick one"?
=> Yes, you roll 2 and pick the best one

Gang War 1 page 23 only precludes fighters from doing post-battle actions if they are captured or in recovery. Technically, seriously injured fighters that rolled a 61-65 and need to be escorted to the doc are not in recovery yet and can do post-battle actions (as do dead fighters, since they still haven't been removed from the gang roster at this point). Could you clarify this point?
=> Dead and currently bleeding to death fighters can't do post-battle actions

The rules for the Genestealer cult's Adept state that "Additional Adept Abilities may be purchased in the same way as though they were a Secondary skill set". How does it work exactly? According to Gang War 1 p16, Secondary skills can only be purchased at random for 9XP. Does it mean that Adept Abilities are also chosen at random even though there are only four of them? Should we roll 1D4?
=> You pay 9XP (plus tax) and get the Ability you want.

The ganger advancement table has a result of 3-4 give a WS/BS for +5 credits and a result of 8-9 give a Wil/Int increase for +20 credits. Shouldn't it be the other way around? (BS/WS should be more likely and more valuable, as it is in the non-ganger advancement table)
=> Yes, it's the other way around. The corrected table reads:
2D6Advancement — Gangers (not including Specialists)Value
2The fighter becomes a Specialist
3-4lmprove the fighter's Willpower or lntelligence by 1+5 credits
5-6lncrease the fighter's Strength or Toughness by 1+30 credits
7Either add 1" to the fighter's Movement or improve their lnitiative by 1+10 credits
8-9lmprove the fighter's Weapon Skill or Ballistic Skill by 1+20 credits
10-11lmprove the fighter's Leadership or Cool by 1+10 credits
12The fighter becomes a Specialist

Do the starting skill of Leaders and Champions count as an advancement as far as the 2XP "tax" goes? The rules from Gang War 1 page 14 imply they do, but the example given page 16 ignores them.
=> It counts. The example is wrong

Genestealer cult's Aberrants and Acolytes have no access to wargear, meaning the can't equip any Extra arm or Cult icon. However, the Cult icon's description specifies that only an Acolyte can carry it, and all Aberrant models are modeled with an extra arm. Should those fighters have access to wargear?
=> They can both take wargear

Orlock gangers currently cannot equip special weapons, even the ones bought from the trading post after the campaign's start. Is this intentional?
=> No. They can equip special weapons bought from the trading post as normal

Can gangers and juves buy weapon attachments and special ammunition? Those are not listed under Wargear, meaning that even gangers currently don't have access to them. And even if they are considered Wargear, shouldn't a Juve be able to load their Stub gun with Dumdum rounds?
=> If you can equip the weapon, you can also have ammo and attachments for it. Those are not wargear but included with the weapon itself. Cost for ammo and attachments count towards the 20 credits cap for Juves.

Skullshank's card from the Underhive box set has a Plasma/stub combi-pistol with the Plentiful trait for the stub gun part of the weapon that is otherwise missing in both Necromunda:Underhive and Gang War 1. Is this an error on the card or should the combi weapon have this trait the same way the regular Stub gun has it?
=> The combi version also has the Plentiful trait

The Stub Gun in Gang War 2 doesn't have the Pistol trait. Do yo confirm this is an error in Gang War 2?
=> Yes. It has the Pistol trait

The Gangs of Legend's version of the Boltgun has a different profile from the one found in Gang War 2 (no AP and Damage 1 instead of 2). Do you confirm Gangs of Legend is in error?
=> Yes. Use the GW2 version

The Gangs of Legend's version of the Heavy stubber has Rapid Fire (1) (instead of Rapid Fire (2) in Gang War 2). Do you confirm Gangs of Legend is in error?
=> Yes. Use the GW2 version

Gor Half-Horn's card (both from the Forge World pdf and in Gang War 2) has a Chainsword that is lacking the Rending trait. Do you confirm the card is in error?
=> Yes. The Chainsword has the Rending trait

Grendel's and Varik's card from the Underhive box set have a Fighting knife with +1 to hit at long range. Do you confirm the cards are in error?
=> Yes. The Fightning knife have no accuracy bonus

Nox's card from the Underhive box set has a Brute Cleaver and a Spud-jacker both with Strength 5 (instead of S and S+1 respectively). Do you confirm the card is in error?
=> Yes. The Brute Cleaver's strength is S and the Spud-jacker's is S+1

Grendel's card from ther Underhive box set has a Rivet cannon with a Rapid Fire mode that is only Damage 1 (instead of 2). Do you confirm the card is in error?
=> Yes. The Rivet cannon — Rapid fire mode is Damage 2

Grub's card from Forge World has a shotgun with executioner rounds and a long range of 8" for this ammo type instead of the 16" found in Gang War 1 and 2. Do you confirm the card is in error?
=> Yes. The Shotgun — Executionner round has a long range of 16"

The profile for the Stub gun's dumdum rounds lacks the Pistol trait in both Gang War 1 and 2. Is this intentional?
=> No. The Dumdum rounds profile should also have the Pistol trait

The profile for the Hand flamer lacks the Pistol trait in both Gang War 2 and Gangs of Legend. Is this intentional?
=> Yes. Pistol and Template are mutually exclusive

The Maximal mode of the plasma cannon in Gang War 2 lacks the Unstable trait that is shared by all other plasma weapons. Is this intentional?
=> No. The Plasma cannon — Maximal mode should have the Unstable trait

The Multi-melta in Gang War 2 lacks the Scarce trait that the meltagun has. Is this intentional?
=> No. The Multi-melta should have the Scarce trait

The card Deadlock states that it can only be used in Sector Mechanicus games. Since it uses a door, and those are more frequent in Zone Mortalis games, shouldn't it be the other way around? And what about other cards that use doors or ductways? (Rigged door, Hidden passage and Emergency seal)
=> Every card that uses Doors and/or Ductways is Zone Mortalis only

There doesn't seem to be any guidelines as to which base size should be used for each fighter type. Should we always 32mm for Goliaths, 25mm for Escher, etc? What about the various genestealer cultist types?
=> Use whatever comes with the mini. We don't care
 
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Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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Now that's how you do a goddamn FAQ (y) *high five*

I am in agreement with all of the above, they are sensible changes, thank you @Thorgor!

Does the Stiletto have AP -1?
=> No (as per GW1 & 2)

What is the Spud Jacker's Str stat?
=> S+1 (not 5)

What is the Brute Cleaver's Str stat?
=> S (not 5)

What is the Lasgun's correct short range?
=> 18" (Choice was between 16" and 18", decided as 18" by a narrow margin - Poll here. This keeps GW 1&2 weapons list ranges correct, and makes UH page 70 incorrect. There may still be further discussion on this as it was so close.)

What is the Shotgun's Executioner Round's correct long range?
=> 16"

Do you get an armour save after a Toxin attack?
=> Yes. You can't have been poisoned if the blade never reached your skin.

Proposed toxin (before consideration of wounds/balance):
"Instead of making a Wound roll for a Toxin attack, roll 2D6. The target's controlling player rolls a D6 and adds the target's Toughness. If the target's roll is higher, the attack has no effect. If the rolls are equal, the target is Seriously Injured regardless of their Wounds characteristic. If the 2D6 roll was higher, the target goes Out of Action. Saving throws can be made."
 
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Trafalgar Law

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Not sure if you're wanting these kind of changes or not, but anyway I'll throw this in here.

Proposed change for Toxin:

Instead of making an Wound roll for a Toxin attack, roll 2D6. The target's controlling player rolls a D6 and adds the target's Toughness. If the target's roll is higher, they attack has no effect. If the rolls are equal or the attackers roll is higher, the target suffers 1 wound. If this reduces the target to 0 wounds use the following injury table. If the rolls were equal the target is Seriously Injured. If the 2D6 roll was higher, the target goes Out of Action. Saving throws are made as usual.

This should both solve the armour save issue and make the weapons less OP.
 
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Thorgor

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*high five* ;)

Do you get an armour save after a Toxin attack?
=> Yes. You can't have been poisoned if the blade never reached your skin.
While I agree that armour should definitively work against Toxin, there are technicalities at work here.
I think that the best way to do it is have Toxin auto-wound, then make an armor save as usual, and then replace the consequence of the wound (-1 Wound and/or Injury roll) with the Toxin roll.

Edit: I like the change @Trafalgar Law proposed, but it may change things to much for the FAQ proper. Maybe it would be best suited for a later balance patch or the handbook?
 

Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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Are "you get a save" and "you save before the toxin roll" not functionally identical apart from the placement of the saving throw? I also feel toxin is meant to bypass wounds. We might need to discuss that one futher too. Edit: misread it @Trafalgar Law.

I've amended my post for now whilst we thrash it out.

Propsed as per Trafalgar Law above (I've removed the second equal roll condition)

"Instead of making an Wound roll for a Toxin attack, roll 2D6. The target's controlling player rolls a D6 and adds the target's Toughness. If the target's roll is higher, the attack has no effect. If the rolls are equal, the target suffers 1 wound. If this reduces the target to 0 wounds the target is Seriously Injured. If the 2D6 roll was higher, the target goes Out of Action. Saving throws are made as usual."
 
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Thorgor

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Saving throws are made as usual.
A saving throw only happens if the target suffer a wound. That's the technicality. If the target goes directly Out of Action/is Seriously injured, there is nothing a save roll can do.

What is the Lasgun's correct short range?
=> 18"
Not sure about this one either. I think 16" actually makes more sense, considering the laspistol (SR 8", LR 12")
 
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