N17 Inquisimunda - Base costs

[alphonse]

@Chamberlain Cheers, I totally understand your point and it's true. For now, there is a lot to debate about N17 and things are getting worse with each release. I hope that the new Kill Team will get more support and care from GW.
I will continue to work on N17 Inquisimunda but I have in mind a possibility to adapt the spirit of it to other games mechanisms, be it Kill Team for instance. So my focus will be to finish a core set of rules for Inquisimunda and to deeply dive into fluff for a new Inquisitor-themed Skirmish-sized game.
Thanks for your help so far!!

 

[Lysimachus]

@Chamberlain @alphonse: yep, can't argue with your reasoning there. I was both happy (mainly because of more nice terrain) and disappointed by the reveal of new kill team, really don't understand GW's logic in releasIng yet another new skirmish set up.

I still think the basic mechanics of the N17 rules have a lot of potential, especially as a simplified version of the Inquisitor ruleset... but I agree it may be worthwhile waiting to see what kill team is actually like before going much further. Especially when new kt has been touted as good for roleplaying style gaming.

 

[alphonse]

In the mean time
I've finished to analyse stats of the positions of N17 Gangs.
What we have previously missed was the access to weapons! A juve can't access anything beside pistols and ccw. That could explain the -15 credits difference we have seen. Gangers were often -5 credits (just basic and limited access to special).
I've also looked at the advancements, in particular for Ld, Cl, Will and Int.

So, I've recalculated TG cost for our 5 positions in Inquisimunda:

Leader.........+100TG
Species baseline +1 to WS, BS, W, A, +2 to Ld, Cl, Wil, Int
1 bonus skill
Access to pistols, ccw, basic & special weapons
Additional advancements: +1 from WS or BS, +1 from W or A, +4 from I, Ld, Cl, Will, Int

Champion......+75TG
Species baseline +1 to WS, BS, W, A, Ld, Cl, Wil, Int
1 bonus skill
Access to pistols, ccw, basic & special weapons
Additional advancements: +1 from WS or BS, +2 from I, Ld, Cl, Will, Int

Warrior...........+25TG
Species baseline +1 to WS, BS, Ld, Cl, Wil, Int
No bonus skill
Access to pistols, ccw, basic weapons
No additional advancements

Heavy.............+50TG
Species baseline +1 to Ld, Cl, Wil, Int
No bonus skill
Access to everything
Additional advancements: +2 from WS or BS, +1 from W or A

Initiate.........+zeroTG
Species baseline +nothing
No bonus skill
Access only to pistols & ccw
No additional advancements

Everyone has access to wargear, contrary to N17.

These costs are exact to +/- 1 TG, so it's not fantasy ;-)
I swear it's purely fortuitous that the costs escalated so nicely at the end (0, 25, 50, 75, 100).
Yes, initiates are "free" (add species cost & equipment). After all, they are just bare fighters.
Warriors are standard.
Heavies are really interesting. They can be "specialized" since you get 2 improvements that you could freely attribute to WS and/or BS (could be +2WS or +2BS or +1WS, +1BS).
Champions are what they are: potential Leaders.

What do you think about it?
I will include this into the next update of the main document.
Species are next!

 

[Lysimachus]

That all looks sensible, do the profile costs include a Knife, I think that might have been why the Initiate came out at 5 TG in v2?

However, I'm (pleasantly) surprised that the Leader gets so many more improvements for the 100 TG, +1 W and A are a solid boost, although I notice you haven't included +1 Initiative that he had before, was that intentional?
I also hadn't included in Unleashed any boosts to the Leader's Cl, Wp and Int, but to be honest it does make sense that they'd be increased along with his Ld.

 

[alphonse]

You might be right about the +5TG for knife in v2. Since in N17 there wasn't any "free knife", I haven't include one. I had remove this knife in the Fighters recruitment section in the main doc (to be more in line with the current version of Necromunda).

The Leader gets a lot of improvements but Ld, Cl, Wil and Int are really cheap, so it's less impressive. The more expansive improvements are indeed +1W/+1A.

I have systematically compared the N17 positions to juves within each gang to get an idea. Juve comes with +1i and +1M, nothing else. So they are almost a "bare" human. In fact, I have considered that each gang was constituted by its own "species". Logically, Juves were the reference standard.
When you look at the profile of leader/champ/gangers, you see these improvements.
Leaders and Champions get at least +1 WS, +1 BS, +1W, +1A. Leaders come with at least +2Ld, Cl, Wil, Int. Champ with +1 for these.
Upon of that, both get further improvements randomly. But nothing about initiative as a standard bonus.

For Unleashed, if you want to keep the iconic 100TG price tag and get more freedom to design a leader, you could choose to split as you want between "standard" and "additional" advances:
- any 3 from: +1WS, +1BS
- any 3 from: +1W, +1A
- any 12 from: +1i, +1Ld, +1Cl, +1Wil, +1Int

For instance, you could write things like that:
- Standard: +1WS, +1BS, +2W, +2i, +1A, +3Ld, +3Cl, +2Wil, +2Int
- Additional: any 1 from +1WS or +1BS

You have a "pool" to choose from.

 

[archont]

Hey Yaktribe Inquisimunda - Community!

I'd like to propose a Pointcost-Review for the Species; for several reasons;
as a preamble I'd like to state that you did a good job with calculating pointsvalues as is - I had reached exactly the same Points and Conclusions and found your methodology rather thorough and smart.
I had reached these same results independently because I was an idiot when my group got into inquisimunda - I simply didnt stumble over this here, because the N17 Inquisimunda was behind a loginwall here in the board.
So I did the work myself, integrated matrices for all the profiles and extrapolated exponential functions closely approximating the results in Underhive, Gangwars and Venator Gangs...

Well; it has to be appended I believe:

1) the higher Pointslimit for Inquisimunda Gangs allows for more dudesmen on the table
2) the broader span of pointsvalues from cheap species to expensive species sharply distorts the relative sizes of Gangs to each other, when compared to the N17 Base.
3) the broader scope and variability of statlines compared to N17 breaks the resultspace for which the N17 points have been designed
4) it is always a huge advantage to simply have more dudes, and also a huge disadvantage to have less dudes on the table

now, most of these arguments are irrelevant in N17 as published by GW; the statlines are ( when compared to the scope and breadth of InquisimundaN17 ) in a relatively narrow band of distribution, pointscost are all relatively closely related and grouped, and relative gangsizes are smaller and of a more controlled variability in sizes.

Pointscosts in the extremes are therefore, sadly, basically nonsense in Inquisimunda as it is;
Sslyth and Ogryns are absurdly expensive, so much so that they are retardedly bad;
Eldar are so expensive that, compared to Tau and Humans, they become essentially unplayable;
Halflings and Grots are so dirt cheap that they absolutely break the system.

Pointscosts should not be distributed not exponentially from a startingpoint, or even geometrically from some zero point, but asymptotically upwards and downwards when leaving a median range of pointsvalues; the further you go into extremely high or low pointsvalues, the smaller the incremental change should be;

there's another thing I'd like to add before posting the list of adjusted pointcosts I propose;
this is that Blanks are severely underpriced as is; their species drawback is not in reality a drawback at all, while their Hollow ability and statincreases come for basically nothing. They should just have a human statline but cost half as much more than a human, as the lvl 2 psyker upgrade costs; so the pointscosts should be 55 TG, which will pay for itself almost if you cancel out only a level 1 Psyker, but is already a cheap counter to level 2 psykers and a really effective counter against level 3 psykers.

I propose the Pointscosts to be adjusted to the following values;
for the more-expensive-than-median range essentially with (median / pts * (pts - median) +median),
and an inverse thereof for the lower than median pointsranges; rounded to increments of 5:

Humans ( +5 ) -> 35 TG
Afriel Strain ( +5 ) -> 40 TG
Beastman (+-0) -> 55 TG
Blanks (+15) -> 55 TG
Ogryns (-20) -> 80 TG
Ratlings (+5) -> 20 TG
Squats (+-0) -> 40 TG
Eldar (-5) -> 65 TG
Orks (+-0) -> 60 TG
Tau (+5) -> 25 TG
Grots (+5) -> 15 TG
Hrud (+-0) -> 45 TG
Jokaero (-10) -> 70 TG
Kroot (+-0) -> 45 TG
Loxatl (+-0) -> 60 TG
Sslyth (-50) -> 90 TG
Stryxis (+-0) -> 40TG
Tarellians (+-0) -> 55TG
Vespid (+-0) -> 60 TG

 

[archont]

ehm, so that deeplink to the image don't seem to work;
and i seem unable to edit my post?
well; the left is what you and or I did, but what we want is the graph on the right

Greetings