N17 N17/Neomunda Arbitrator's Handbook Project

FerociousBeast

Gang Champion
Jun 1, 2015
474
1,098
113
Verona, VA
The following thread shall house the project to draft up a community based, house rule system to support the N17/Neomunda release and allow gaming groups to adopt a template format to help guide campaign play through multiple games with an easier time than just going off the official rulebooks. Please use the N17/Neomunda FAQ thread to address any convolution or interpretation concerns with the official N17 rules, from which hopefully this project can build upon to aid in any campaign wide issues or helpful GM/Arbitration ideas that can be implemented to keep the fun factor high :)



----------------------------------------------------


Update (2/8/2018): Please use the Arbitrator's Handbook work space to write down and work on your own house rules to be included in a future official YakTribe Arbitrator's Handbook.

Please very carefully read the rules section before diving in, and make backup copies in case an accident happens and the file is overwritten.

-FB

----------------------------------------------------

N17 has been controversial, to say the least, due to poor editing, the release strategy, and many of the changes that have been made to the game. The Necrocommunity perhaps is particularly sensitive to such things due to its historical involvement in not just playing the game, but tweaking its ruleset. There is resistance, however, towards going full-on "N17CE" for several good reasons.

But still, those looking to start a new campaign have a difficult task ahead of them due to the problems with the rulebooks.

I think the solution might be baked into the game already, though: the ultimate power in a campaign is NOT GW or the rulebook!
  • "The Arbitrator is the ultimate power in the campaign, and their word is final"
  • "If they wish to adapt any campaign rules, they can do so"
  • "If they wish to add their own bespoke rules, this is also fine"
No one has ever needed permission to play a game the way they want to, but N17 expressly codifies this and puts GW's seal of approval on house rulings. Perhaps there's an opportunity here to correct N17's failings without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

If a handbook were compiled with a list of a la carte house rules that an Arbitrator starting a new campaign can pick and choose from in an orderly manner, it wouldn't violate any copyright rules because it wouldn't be replacing the rulebook, and would be incomplete on its own without it. It would go beyond simply being an FAQ and errata, which GW already provides, by giving options to completely replace various mechanisms. To borrow a concept from the video game community, it would provide a list of "mods" to the game.

A few examples:
  • Alternate Toxin rule: <insert rules>
  • When founding a new gang, before the gang's first battle, up to D3 fighters can be equipped with common items from the Trading Post
  • When founding a new gang, before the gang's first battle, the Leader may visit the Trading Post to purchase common items and one rare item, per the normal post-battle rules for doing so
  • Replace the Turf rules with the following map-based system: <insert rules>
Why would a handbook be helpful here, given that an Arbitrator already has the power to do all this by him/herself? Well, house ruling a game is intimidating, often controversial, and easily botched. If there were a standard guide available to do this, from a respected source, I think a spirit of house ruling the game would gain wider acceptance and be less prone to failure.

Thoughts? Bad idea? Good?
 
Last edited:

Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Jun 1, 2016
2,616
7,908
213
Ellon, United Kingdom
Good idea.

I imagine (hope) that many of our current issues will be sorted by FAQ/Errata, but I've seem some FAQs which are a god-awful mess when they come out. Badly laid out, disorderly and hard to follow.

We could take the opportunity to both tidy the FAQ when it emerges (if it needs it) and start giving options for house rules. Essentially an "official" and "unofficial" section. It can be quite stressful trying to decide on whether to implement a house rule or not due to the unforseen consequences than can crop up. A handy list of "proven" house rule options could be a very helpful resource!
 
  • Like
Reactions: FerociousBeast

FerociousBeast

Gang Champion
Jun 1, 2015
474
1,098
113
Verona, VA
I've been lurking on the forums every since N17 came out, and the mood has transitioned from "excitement!" to "wait we've got some problems here" to "this is junk, wake me up in a year when the compendium's released." The "spaghetti code" nature of the rules being sprinkled thru the various books can't be helped, but almost everything else can be if we just take GW's own advice and tweak what we want to tweak for our own campaigns! A "mod guide" for Arbitrators could really help.
 

Blood Donor

Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Aug 23, 2011
3,375
4,324
178
32
Golden, British Columbia, Canada
Good idea Terrific idea. Sounds like you have a very well thought out approach to it as well. If momentum builds and you would like one of the staff to sticky this thread, I don't see any issue with that. Desire for work on the Inquisimunda 3.0 project seems to have stagnated across the larger group of interested parties, but this could attract a lot of ideas and discussion given the current support and buzz of the release :)(y)
 

FerociousBeast

Gang Champion
Jun 1, 2015
474
1,098
113
Verona, VA
Thanks. I haven't participated in this forum much yet, so I'm not sure how things like this are done here, but I imagine a process could look like this: sticky a handbook thread that contains a link to the latest version of the handbook. The rest of the thread is used for submitting house rule ideas and deliberating, approving, voting ... or however that last step of "git 'er in the guide" happens.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
2,837
6,185
138
34
Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
Yes, very good idea.

I, for one, have been waiting for the long-awaited official FAQ before I go bonkers with house-rules. However, it seems likely now that, when this FAQ finally is published, I'll be tempted to wait for GW2, and then for GW2's unavoidable FAQ, and then for GW3 extended weapon lists, and then... you get the idea.

Sooooo.... where should we start? :D
 

Blood Donor

Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Aug 23, 2011
3,375
4,324
178
32
Golden, British Columbia, Canada
I think waiting for the whole collection might be adding 18+ months to the waiting list, I think the best bet would be to scour the FAQ that is hosted locally here and begin that way. Chances are (hopefully hopefully hopefully it would be embarrassing on their behalf otherwise) that any of the following rules revisions done on GWs end are along the same conceptual format as the NCE in that they will be adjustments and tweaks rather than them being like "well we done messed up and are gonna start from scratch for the update", and as such any work that begins before all of the GW rules are released should be fairly easy to be brought up to speed rather than waiting until the entire workload is assessed and put on the cutting board. I certainly think any of the prep work that would go in before GW2/GW3 are released would only help in making the refinements required after those publications hit shelves to be much more of a simple process.
 

FerociousBeast

Gang Champion
Jun 1, 2015
474
1,098
113
Verona, VA
So.... I just made "Juve" here and am probably not the guy to say how this is going to go down, but if I may hazard a suggestion as to how one might go about suggesting a house rule for inclusion...

Post in this thread with:
  • The title of the suggested house rule
  • The text of the rule
  • A link to the thread where it's being discussed
  • Section of the (TBD) handbook where the house rule should live
  • Book, page number, and text that the house rule replaces (if any)
Example:

Alternate Toxin Rule
After hitting a target one or more times with a weapon that has the Toxin rule, place one Toxin token on the Fighter's card for each successful hit, then resolve the attack normally. During each end phase, roll a Toughness characteristic check for each Toxin token on a Fighter's card: If the check is successful, they shrug off the toxin's effects. Remove a Toxin token for that check. If failed, the Fighter takes a Flesh Wound, and the Toxin token remains on the card.

Discussion Link

Handbook Section: Weapon Traits
Replaces: N:UH, page ??, Toxin; N:GW, page ??, Toxin
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
294
199
43
Australia
Let's start (This is in no way my own work: some have been lifted from the Tabletop Simulator campaign House Rules, which @Taikkuus is running and others from various suggestions on the forums):

A/B are mutually exclusive and are used to provide multiple different options to fixing the same rule. 1, 2, 3 can be combined (ie they fix the same general rule, but in different ways).

Alternate Toxin Rule
A. Toxin replaces both the 'Wound Roll' and the 'Injury Roll'. The process for attacking for a weapon with Toxin is as follows:
Roll to hit, opponent rolls saves, roll Toxin.
B. Roll to wound for Toxin as normal. However, regardless of how many wounds the target has, if the target suffers an unsaved Toxin wound roll a Toxin test (regardless of how many wounds with Toxin were sustained). In addition, fighters still lose a wound. For example, a Goliath Champion (with 2 wounds remaining) is wounded by an Escher Juve with a Stiletto Knife and fails their armour roll, they must take a Toxin test and also take a wound (so only have 1 wound remaining); if the same Goliath Champion suffered another wound as part of the same action (ie. from an Autopistol) then they'd need to take both a Toxin Test and an Injury Roll (due to being reduced to 0 wounds or less); fighters on 1 wound who suffer a Toxin wound need to take both a Toxin test and an Injury Roll.

Discussion here and here

Handbook Section: Weapon Traits
Added to: Transcribed PDF p 35.

Rarer Grenade Launchers
A. Grenade Launchers do not come with any Grenades as standard, these need to be bought separately. IE a Grenade Launcher bought from the Trading Post costs 65creds, 30creds for Frag Grenades and 45 Creds for Krak Grenades for a total cost of 140creds.

B. Grenade Launchers do not come with any Grenades as standard, these need to be bought separately (as above). In addition Grenade Launchers cost 80 creds if bought through the Trading Post and 70 Creds if bought through a House Weapon List. IE a Grenade Launcher bought from the Trading Post costs 65creds, 30creds for Frag Grenades and 45 Creds for Krak Grenades for a total cost of 155creds.

Discussion here and anywhere gang creation has been discussed.

Handbook section: House Weapon List and The Trading Post
Replaces: Transcribed PDF p 36, 37, 44, 50, 52, 54

Better Juve Advancement
1. Juve Advancements are reset upon being promoted to Champion, reduce their advancement counter back to 0.

2. Juves get Free Armour on being promoted to Champion. They now have the same Armour as a normal Champion of their House.

3. Juve equipment is Reset on being promoted to Champion. If the owning player wishes he may completely replace his Juve's model with a new model reflective of their status as Champion. At this time they can be issued with entirely new equipment.

Discussion here

Handbook section: Advancements
Added to: Transccribed PDF p 58.

Rarer Special Weapons
1. You may only equip ONE non-Specialist Ganger-type with a Special Weapon. If a Ganger becomes a Specialist, they gain the ability to use Special Weapons in addition to the one non-Specialist Ganger-type.

Handbook section: Founding a Gang for a Campaign
Added to: Transcribed PDF page 42

Scatter that misses
1. Scatter is D3+3.


Blast clarification
1. Blasts are a 3D Sphere.

2. A. If Blasts scatter off the edge of a platform they move horizontally the distance determined by the scatter roll and explode in space at the same level as the target.
B. If Blasts scatter off the edge of a platform they move horizontally the distance determined by the scatter roll and are placed on top of the most logical surface (ie. only horizontal movement is counted, vertical movement is free). If there is a disagreement about what is the most logical surface (ie in a multi-level building) players roll to determine the outcome.
C. If blasts that scatter off the edge of a platform, measure the distance down to the next level and count half the distance (rounding up) against the scatter distance.

4. Wherever the blast ends is where it explodes, any model whose base is in the blast sphere is hit.

Intuitive Damage
1. When you deal damage to a multi-wound model bringing them to 0 wounds, only roll injury dice equal to how much damage remained after reducing the model to 1 wound. Ex: 3 Damage to model with 2 wounds would result in 2 injury dice being rolled.

Skills: True Grit
A. Any time you roll an Injury Dice True Grit applies, if you are supposed only roll 1 Injury Dice roll 2 Instead and discard the highest. Note this stacks with the additional dice from assisted recovery (ie you roll 3 dice and discard 2).
B. Any time you roll an Injury Dice True Grit applies except Recovery Rolls, if you are supposed only roll 1 Injury Dice roll 2 Instead and discard the highest.
C. True Grit only applies to attacks and falling damage. If you only take a Dam 1 wound from a fall roll 2 Injury Dice and discard one.
D. True Grit only applies to attacks.

Skills: Unstoppable.
1. If you roll 2 Injury dice as part of a recovery, 1 result is discarded. This stacks with assistance.

Skill: Mighty Leap
1. During a Mighty Leap (as opposed to a regular Leap) any airborne distance is free (ie an Escher Juve with Mighty Leap can Move 3", Mighty Leap 3" and Move a further 3" as part of a single 6" Move action, assuming they pass the Initiative Test).

Charging
1.A. When declaring a Charge action, you do not need to declare a charge target.
B. When declaring a Charge action, you do need to declare a charge target.

2. A. If you can end within 1" of an enemy fighter, but not in base contact then your charge fails and you must stop at least 1" away from the enemy fighter.
B. If you can end within 1" of an enemy fighter, but not in base contact then your charge fails and you can freely move the remaining distance to get into base contact.

Scare Gas Grenades
1.A. The Scare Gas Grenade's Fear trait does not have any rules - treat this as forcing a Nerve Test for all models caught in the blast.
B. The Scare Gas Grenade's Fear trait does not have any rules - treat this as forcing a Willpower Test for all models caught in the blast. If the test is failed the fighter is Broken just as if it had failed a Nerve Test.

2. Applying the normal Filter Plug/Respirator bonuses to Toughness to this test as well.

Close Combat
1. You must use the same 2 weapons for both parts of a fight-reaction sequence. This means you can't attack with a sword and pistol, then when the enemy reacts use a second parry weapon to parry the opponent twice. In the same situation if the opponent attacks first and you parry twice, you can't make your reaction attacks using the pistol.
2. The Flail weapon's Entangle trait does not have any rules - treat it as cancelling one Parry that the enemy fighter may have.

Scenarios. Looters
1. Add this line to the 'Ending the Game' section. If the defending gang bottles, any Loot Caskets within 1" of an active attacking fighter are claimed for the purpose of determining Rewards.

Edit: I'm going to have to go an update these all now to be in the correct format. :(

 
Last edited:

Blood Donor

Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Aug 23, 2011
3,375
4,324
178
32
Golden, British Columbia, Canada
My only concern is if gigantic posts worthy of their own discussions start cropping up here, then people will only end up skimming, giving feedback based on half reading, etc.

The hyperlink use is great. Honestly if fully need be, maybe a full forum section could be dedicated to this, and then mirroring the I'munda section's format would make a lot of sense: the major thread - being this the N17 Arbitrator's Handbook thread - is stickied and followed by maybe a rough handful of temp stickies dedicated to the major sections. Then there would be normal threads for each of the topics, which then get brought up in the appropriate temp sticky, which then gets brought up in this thread. What that does is allows this thread to focus on the important structuring of the document, and then the temp stickies focus on the format of key portions, and then individual topics have their own free reign to dominate their own threads. It makes the management of work very simplistic (if not almost self-driving), so then the efforts can be better focused on ensuring the material quality is there.

I can talk to @Malo about an N17 specific section, but in the meantime don't hesitate to carry on full bore. Posts can be reallocated to proper sections and what not after the fact :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: spafe

Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Jun 1, 2016
2,616
7,908
213
Ellon, United Kingdom
Close Combat - Pistols with Rapid Fire
A: Firing a pistol with the Rapid Fire trait in close combat uses the Rapid Fire dice to decide number of hits AND whether the gun jams/runs out of ammo. These shots must all be used against one target the fighter is Engaged with.

B: Firing a pistol with the Rapid Fire trait in close combat only uses the Rapid Fire dice to decide whether the gun jams/runs out of ammo - only one hit is inflicted.

C: Firing a pistol with the Rapid Fire trait in close combat uses the Rapid Fire dice to decide number of hits AND whether the gun jams/runs out of ammo. These shots can be distributed amongst Engaged targets and those up to 3" away in LOS as per the Rapid Fire rule.

Discussed here at the moment.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
2,837
6,185
138
34
Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
My only concern is if gigantic posts worthy of their own discussions start cropping up here, then people will only end up skimming, giving feedback based on half reading, etc.
Yes. @Kairae's post is a good example. Many interesting ideas here, but if we start discussing them all this thread is gonna turn into an absolute mess rivaled only by the official N17 rules :p

Maybe it could be useful to define several categories of house rules. I'd say:

1. house rules that correct objective errors from the official documents (for when the RAW don't work at all):
1.1. house rules for rules that are referred to in the official rules but are nowhere to be found (Fear, Entangle...)
1.2. house rules for rules that exist in the official documents but don't work/don't make sense as written (Mighty Leap...)
1.3. house rules for rules or interactions that are unclear/ambiguous (Charge, Rare trades, True grit, Unstoppable...)
2. house rules that correct subjective errors from the official documents (for when the RAW are different from the perceived RAI):
2.1. house rules for things that we feel don't work how they should (D1 boltgun, Rapid Fire 1 heavy stubber, Toxin, Gangers advancement table...)
2.2. balance house rules (Stray shot, Grenade Launcher...)
3. other house rules (for when you don't like the RAI):
3.1. house rules that change how the official rules work (Gangers can change loadouts, equipment can be sold, common equipment added to all HWL, crippling injuries are tracked individually...)
3.2. optional house rules that add something new to the game (Bionics, captured equipment, additional equipment...)
What do you think we should start with/concentrate on? The official FAQ should (hopefully) address everything from 1., some from 2. and none from 3, but the issues from 1. are also the most important to solve quickly (as the game is unplayable if they aren't).
 
Last edited:

Blood Donor

Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Aug 23, 2011
3,375
4,324
178
32
Golden, British Columbia, Canada
I think the post that @Kairae made covers excellent material, but once we get a format going I think we can maximize the ability to churn through such material and get it arranged and prepared for some sort of draft in a much easier fashion. Granted that the prefix system works well to identify which discussions are for N17, and that these discussions span a great number of the forum subsections, I think the best approach will be to agree on a number of official sub category threads for this one, title them appropriately so readership does not have difficulties piecing the process together, and then rely on standard discussion traffic to keep them visible on the first few pages of the Rules, Mechanics and Skills section rather than try and carve out a new N17 specific section and cause additional headaches in that process...

As for right now it would be cool either by likes or quick posts to voice interest for members following this thread and interested in the development of an Arbitrator's Handbook so that the group can gain a sense of pacing and what not. The major problem with the Inquisimunda 3.0 project - from which I think a lot of the task sharing and group dynamic can be borrowed from - is that it seemed to be met with bursts of vigor and then immediately stall out. If there is a good sense of who wants to make progress on this and the group is big enough to keep anyone from getting turtled by the workload, I think camaraderie alone can keep this one running until completion :)
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
294
199
43
Australia
The easiest way to solve the 'burst of vigour and then lack of interest' is make it a living document. That way the results are immediately available. You capture the results of the burst of vigour which gives you an 80% solution and then over time you get the rest of the way.

It also then allows you to rapidly either remove House rules that are 'fixed' by GW (or move them to section 3).

Agree with @Thorgor on the 3 broad headings. I just find with projects with this unless you have some meat to start cutting up it gets very much bogged down in initial planning.

I think you're absolutely right that discussion of various rules should not happen here. But that's easy enough to do with a post: I think House Rule X is extremely broken, I've started a thread discussing it here.

Also, I don't think this should be the place for drafting or refining house rules. Or arbitrating between different options. If this thread concentrates on collating and only basic editing of House Rules proposed elsewhere then it's less likely to descend into a mess.
 

Blood Donor

Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Aug 23, 2011
3,375
4,324
178
32
Golden, British Columbia, Canada
The Inquisimunda 3.0 was certainly a Living Document, the problem becomes the unpaid efforts that go into it. Hard to prioritize vocational work over real life, and even if it begins to dominate hobby time it can all too easily feel burdensome. So while the Living Document strives for that ideal of 100% up to the minute updating, reality forces it more to a periodic updating process at best. Even then, forcing strict update cycles like biweekly or monthly can be constrictive on said vocational efforts. I've witnessed 8 years worth of successes in the Necromunda Community Edition process of supporting updates.

As for the end goal of this specific thread, I will echo that there is no issue throwing everything here for the time being since myself or other staff will be able to move posts to more appropriate threads once created. So far the last post by @Thorgor is the only one to suggest formatting on what new thread options would be good to corral the discussions, so as it stands that would be the basis of the breakdown for which the N17 Arbitrator's Handbook discussions would currently be rearranged into. If the group is able to cull together some more ideas or approaches to this, we can whittle a decided approach vector and then I can move posts around and create threads and we can have the foundation set for which the Handbook can be constructed upon.

While @Malo is a busy person with the coding and physical construction of the website, I can also see about getting him to add some sort of "Check out discussion for the N17 Arbitrator's Handbook project" that will pop up as a header above the Random Media bar of the Community main page, in the same essence as the "This site uses cookies" header that is visible when not logged in (or competition updates... I'm rambling but I'm sure you get what I am trying to describe). Having a header there talking about the project should drum up some interested people for this. The alternative is going through every thread with an N17 prefix with rules questions or proposed remedies and linking this thread in a post.

Anyways: drum up more support for the idea; agree on a thread breakdown; move posts and delete my at-that-point-irrelevant posts; begin drafting a document based on the discussions; update document based on the progression of said discussions.
 

spafe

Executive Officer in charge of Hats
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Feb 8, 2013
9,092
11,681
268
Tilehurst, U.k.
One thing I will suggest from a lessons learn't front. Living doc is good. I would suggest someone creates a shared open area (with links to in the opening post).

In this you want a master file. That file is locked and has key people with permissions to edit, but anyone can view.
You then want areas files, ie. weapons lists, skills, scenarios etc. These are open to everyone to edit, allowing for 'capturing the vigor moments' that will let them grow quickly.

These files can get to a point (usually naturally from my experience), where folk are pretty happy, then they can by copy/pasted directly into the master file.

Finally I suggest a superceeded folder where you take snapshots at each revision at the same time as the master if copied in. This allows for a history of the document to be visible, as further down the line this might be very useful for reference.

The reason I suggest the open area, is that if the main person loses interest or something unforseen happens, you dont lose the file. The number of key people who can edit the master is also useful on this front.

I hope this all makes sense, and I will be keeping an interested eye on it's development.
 

Benoksen

Ganger
Mar 15, 2016
165
234
48
47
Oslo
This is a fabulous initiative! As I see it, the NCE should be an execellent guideline for developing a new Arbitor's handbook. Being played and developed over several years the ruleset will be a good aiming point for fixing N17. As the NCE has already established a solid consensus and is widely known, it will help future developments of Necomunda go in the same direction.
 

Space Truckin

Gang Hero
Dec 16, 2015
853
1,658
123
Cruz Bay, St. John, USVI