N18 N23 grenades discussion (have they destroyed grenades?)

[Scorpyon]

So the new Core Rulebook is on the way, and looking at some of the changes I am utterly dumbfounded by what they have done to the way grenades work.
A -2 to hit when targetting the ground - a non-moving target in open view with no ability to move out of the way is somehow HARDER to hit than a moving target ducking behind partial cover?
I mean this is absolutely dumb and makes no logical sense from either a gameplay OR a narrative viewpoint. How on earth is it harder to hit the floor in the open than someone in cover?
And when would you ever try to throw a smoke grenade with the aim of hitting someone rather than into an area to try and block line of sight?
AND ADDITIONALLY, 3" blast markers are now practically useless. If you hit with them, the likelihood of another ganger being within 1" of them is extremely low, so tactical placement is pointless (and impossible) since they are now no more effective than a single target weapon of which there are countless others that are better to use now than grenades.

This whole change is extremely disappointing from a fair play point of view and I am convinced that this was implemented / suggested by a disgruntled Corpse Grinder player who was just annoyed that people had a way of getting around their ridiculously overpowered Masks and Falsehoods.

 

[HEZZZ]

Blast weapons needed a nerf, but this really wasn't the best fix.

We've been playing that partial blast and template coverage only hits if the partially covered models fail an Initiative test. Fixes 2 problems in 1 go, and makes some fluff sense.

 

[Scorpyon]

Yeah, see I don't have a problem with people in cover say still getting a cover bonus from a grenade. That would have been the sensible change in my opinion.
Nerfing grenades into oblivion like this just makes zero sense.

 

[JawRippa]

Yeah, see I don't have a problem with people in cover say still getting a cover bonus from a grenade. That would have been the sensible change in my opinion.
Nerfing grenades into oblivion like this just makes zero sense.

You can select targets to throw the grenade at and suffer penalty based on their cover and conditions rather than a flat -2. But yeah, hand-thrown grenades got hit with a blanket blast nerf.

 

[Galtarr]

Don't grenades only scatter until they hit a wall? If so they're always going to be effective in narrow corridors. Tbf I played alot of 2d tunnel skirmish games so my experience is biased. Also not saying it's the best rule change.

 

[Scorpyon]

Don't grenades only scatter until they hit a wall? If so they're always going to be effective in narrow corridors. Tbf I played alot of 2d tunnel skirmish games so my experience is biased. Also not saying it's the best rule change.

Sure, but there's a lot of Zone Mechanicus maps / scenarios where smokes are basically required for any CC based gang to have any hope of defeating a gang like Van Saar etc

 

[Nurgdor]

And when would you ever try to throw a smoke grenade with the aim of hitting someone rather than into an area to try and block line of sight?

Got the new rulebook slightly early: any weapon with the Smoke trait ignores the -2. But yes, overall it's a huge nerf for blast weapons.

 

[Scorpyon]

Oof! Well thats good news about smokes at least. It means they still can be useful.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Small target penalty is a staple of Necromunda and other GW games too.

 

[cronevald]

Grenades bounce and roll. Realistic or not it's a cinematic staple included in many games and types of games. I was reminded of this last night playing some Fallout 3 when the grenade I'd thrown in utter desperation at a charging super mutant landed at his feet and rolled down the hill behind him, the blast missing him completely. A change to the blast rule was definitely needed in my opinion and this in game explanation works just fine for me.

 

[Amarok]

Grenades bounce and roll. Realistic or not it's a cinematic staple included in many games and types of games. I was reminded of this last night playing some Fallout 3 when the grenade I'd thrown in utter desperation at a charging super mutant landed at his feet and rolled down the hill behind him, the blast missing him completely. A change to the blast rule was definitely needed in my opinion and this in game explanation works just fine for me.

Everyone agrees that blast rules needed a change. What is being discussed is if this was the change needed.

A blank -2 to hit to the ground is too harsh and it just nerf some gangs/equipment and boost some others. A humble Cawdor with grenades/fire bombs of any kind is going to be even more suicide than ever, while a Van Saar champion with rad/plasma cannon wil still land hits on the floor with ease. Not to talk how ilogical is to hit covered fighters than clear floor the same, as already mentioned in this thread.

I'm no game designer by any means, I can't say which is the best solution. In our campaign we tried -1 to hit, use the scatter dice as it was in old WH Fantasy along the hit roll (an arrow always scattered, a crosshair with a succesful hit, you placed the template in the desired location...) and some others. None was trully good for us, but a blank -2 is not going to make it better.

Better than it was before? Maybe. A good solution? Not so sure.

 

[Scorpyon]

Grenades bounce and roll. Realistic or not it's a cinematic staple included in many games and types of games. I was reminded of this last night playing some Fallout 3 when the grenade I'd thrown in utter desperation at a charging super mutant landed at his feet and rolled down the hill behind him, the blast missing him completely. A change to the blast rule was definitely needed in my opinion and this in game explanation works just fine for me.

And how many "cinematic" movies or shows have you seen where the person throwing a grenade did so with the intention of hitting them with the grenade to do damage with the impact of the grenade (rather than the explosion)?
Because that it what this change is doing from a narrative sense

 

[Galtarr]

So a smoke grenade can be fired accurately but not any other grenade

Grenades bounce and roll. Realistic or not it's a cinematic staple included in many games and types of games. I was reminded of this last night playing some Fallout 3 when the grenade I'd thrown in utter desperation at a charging super mutant landed at his feet and rolled down the hill behind him, the blast missing him completely. A change to the blast rule was definitely needed in my opinion and this in game explanation works just fine for me.

Agreed. I'd just have it scatter D3 on a hit or unless the scatter die rolls a hit as well. Limits sniping but still useable in crowded areas.

 

[Scorpyon]

So a smoke grenade can be fired accurately but not any other grenade

Agreed. I'd just have it scatter D3 on a hit or unless the scatter die rolls a hit as well. Limits sniping but still useable in crowded areas.

With the -2 to hit, almost every time you use a grenade it is likely to "miss", so it already effectively does this.

 

[Galtarr]

With the -2 to hit, almost every time you use a grenade it is likely to "miss", so it already effectively does this.

Yes but it scatters D6 which is likely to be wasted on a 3" template. D3 will probably hit something if it lands in a crowded area, you might not get every target you want but it'll get something. And if used to snipe into combat you're likely to hit both combatants.

Like others said it needed something I'm just not sure the -2 is the right fix.

 

[daveh]

if you are smart like cawdor , just tie the grenade to a rat and hope for the best. but dont forget to slip some cheese in the enemies pocket first.

 

[Scorpyon]

if you are smart like cawdor , just tie the grenade to a rat and hope for the best. but dont forget to slip some cheese in the enemies pocket first.

Hahaha!

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I can't land a rock 20 feet away on a pinpoint... It's gonna scatter.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Don't know about the rest of you, but I can't land a rock 20 feet away on a pinpoint... It's gonna scatter.

No but I can hit a womprat in my X wing.

 

[spafe]

Personally I like the change. It could have effected only blast weapons that arnt thrown grenades and it would be fine, but also, landing a grenade on an exact spot you need without something to catch it (nook or corner), is bloody hard.

This means its still effective if you lob it into a room or down a corridor (stopped by walls means its still likely to be a bad day for the person stood in said room or corridor), but you can get that pefect shot through a gap, over a barrel, past a grill and onto a ramp without modifier.

I dunno, I've not played with it yet, but on the face of it... I like it.