N18 N23 grenades discussion (have they destroyed grenades?)

[-Rud-]

I welcome the change and based on the comments, am probably the only one who sees it as a buff to grenades.

I prefer giving grenades to the least skilled people in the squad (those who can shoot get the privilege of a real weapon!). I'm then able to place my blast marker broadly central to the enemy gang deployment (I'm amazed so many of your opponents group up within range), but likely with no direct targets.... Then I roll hoping for a miss, and let the scatter gods decide who is worthy. Worst case scenario is no scatter, best case it can bend round ridiculous corners and maybe even catch a cluster of people who mistakenly thought it was an impossible shot. -2 helps mitigate accidental accuracy!

 

[cronevald]

The impression I'm getting here is that grenades and blast had become a specific counter to certain other gangs' abilities and playstyles. I see this change as needed overall and would much like to see the designers address those specific issues so that opponents don't have to rely on what are essentially rules workarounds or oversights to face them. It's similar to my utter hatred of Corpse Grinders. They work as a close combat gang because they have a number of special rules to make up for the lackluster close combat system. If the designers would just make close combat itself more viable Corpse Grinders wouldn't need all those frustrating special rules.

 

[Scorpyon]

I prefer giving grenades to the least skilled people in the squad (those who can shoot get the privilege of a real weapon!). I'm then able to place my blast marker broadly central to the enemy gang deployment (I'm amazed so many of your opponents group up within range), but likely with no direct targets.... Then I roll hoping for a miss, and let the scatter gods decide who is worthy. Worst case scenario is no scatter, best case it can bend round ridiculous corners and maybe even catch a cluster of people who mistakenly thought it was an impossible shot. -2 helps mitigate accidental accuracy!

There's a funny story from our games here - we played a one-shot skirmish a few weeks back. (Most of my gang had blast weapons / grenades of some sort - yes, sorry, I was that guy for this game).
As a one shot, we had weather / map effects going on through the game and one of them was that any blast weapon (or nade) automatically failed on a hit barring a natural 6. So of course, for every shot I would do exactly as you said there and place a blast roughly in between a group or a couple of fighters with the expectation of scattering into them. And wouldn't you know, Every. Single. Roll. when I was doing that hit a 6 and exploded there, and then whenever I bottled the decision and targeted a player, of course it missed completely, XDD
(I have the worst luck in this game, I swear)

The two funniest / most upsetting moments of that game though, were
*scattering and hitting my Leader in the face with a multi-melta stray bullet.
*Landing my one single actual (intended) hit of the game and taking out the opponent's Sniper with said Multi-Melta

 

[Scorpyon]

The impression I'm getting here is that grenades and blast had become a specific counter to certain other gangs' abilities and playstyles. I see this change as needed overall and would much like to see the designers address those specific issues so that opponents don't have to rely on what are essentially rules workarounds or oversights to face them. It's similar to my utter hatred of Corpse Grinders. They work as a close combat gang because they have a number of special rules to make up for the lackluster close combat system. If the designers would just make close combat itself more viable Corpse Grinders wouldn't need all those frustrating special rules.

Corpse Grinders are definitely a real problem and in every game that we have played with CGs in, the only two ways that it was ever possible to beat the CGs, (thanks to the fact that requiring players to roll 9/10+ on a Will Save (for Goliaths, e.g.) to even make an attack is absolutely broken as hell) were one of the following:

1. Try and take out all the juves, ignoring the Leader and Champs completely, and pray that the CGs failed their bottle check. (Very gamey way to win)
2. Use blast-based weapons or nades in order to try and get around the OP masks, since it is practically the only way to slow them down / stop them.
(There was actually a third way to win, since we were doing a campaign using rackets and Intrigues. One of our group managed to get the Intrigue that allows you to bribe the opponent with 250 creds to throw the game, so the CGs player took the bribe lol)

One of the biggest issues we faced (and ended up banning because of it) were the FalseHoods. With the right build, the CGs could clear the entire board in 2 turns, and then with a 4-man group activation, along with Frenzon Collars, could just decimate the opponent's entire team in practically a single turn. And the opponent couldnt even stop it happening since they could not target or shoot at a Friendly player (it was ruled to cheesey to fire blasts at falsehood wearers because they were considered "friends" and you wouldnt shoot at your friends)

 

[Amarok]

Corpse Grinders are definitely a real problem and in every game that we have played with CGs in, the only two ways that it was ever possible to beat the CGs, (thanks to the fact that requiring players to roll 9/10+ on a Will Save (for Goliaths, e.g.) to even make an attack is absolutely broken as hell) were one of the following:

1. Try and take out all the juves, ignoring the Leader and Champs completely, and pray that the CGs failed their bottle check. (Very gamey way to win)
2. Use blast-based weapons or nades in order to try and get around the OP masks, since it is practically the only way to slow them down / stop them.
(There was actually a third way to win, since we were doing a campaign using rackets and Intrigues. One of our group managed to get the Intrigue that allows you to bribe the opponent with 250 creds to throw the game, so the CGs player took the bribe lol)

One of the biggest issues we faced (and ended up banning because of it) were the FalseHoods. With the right build, the CGs could clear the entire board in 2 turns, and then with a 4-man group activation, along with Frenzon Collars, could just decimate the opponent's entire team in practically a single turn. And the opponent couldnt even stop it happening since they could not target or shoot at a Friendly player (it was ruled to cheesey to fire blasts at falsehood wearers because they were considered "friends" and you wouldnt shoot at your friends)

So using the bottle rules as they are is gamey but using the most broken combos from the trading post/black market goods (falsehood and frenzon collars) isn't?

 

[CaptainDangerous]

*the Captain puts on his mod hat*
Just changed the title of the thread, all opinions are welcome, I’m pleased to see yaks having a healthy discussion.
*the Captain throws a smoke grenade to make a dramatic exit, fails his hit roll, it bounces…*
*the Captain stomps away awkwardly*

 

[MusingWarboss]

If the designers would just make close combat itself more viable Corpse Grinders wouldn't need all those frustrating special rules.

Ah, the old “We have scary masks so you will soil yourself if you try to attack us in any way”.

It is quite an annoying mechanic and rather blunt.

 

[cardyfreak]

So is the actual issue the effect -2 has as a counter against Corpse Grinders rather than its impact on the overall health of the game? Cos if so id say the issue lays squarely with Corpse Grinders rather than grenades

 

[-Rud-]

You should all go easy on judging this rule change too harshly. They weren't targeting anyone specifically when they applied the rule change...



... Therefore they had a -2 modifier and may have missed the mark!

 

[Deathwing1983]

Re CGs it's just a Willpower roll to shoot them, which you will make half the time, and if you charge them (eg if you are Goliath) they are glass melee cannons.

 

[TopsyKretts]

So is the actual issue the effect -2 has as a counter against Corpse Grinders rather than its impact on the overall health of the game? Cos if so id say the issue lays squarely with Corpse Grinders rather than grenades

Yeah I think it's a healthy nerf to blasts, particularly as they were unaffected by pitch black. And yes, CGC needs to be nerfed separately. However, as someone pointed out, this nerf will affect low BS teams more and high BS teams less due to aim and other special rules that could partially or fully negate this nerf.

 

[Deathwing1983]

Van Saar will be 3+ to hit in many cases with grenades now, doesn't seem so bad! Grenades? I mean with multi meltas... Why would we take grenades...

 

[daveh]

Cawdor will be.......ah forget it , we've got better ways to miss

 

[Cmarler]

We've been playing -1 to hit if weapon has blast trait and is targeting the ground. Weapons with the grenade trait (i'e Hand thrown) do not suffer this penalty though and it has been working well. I could also see that hand thrown grenades may +/- take the penalty of targeting the ground and only scatter D3 or scatter only up (capped at) to the throwers max strength. Easy fixes, Necromunda thrives on House rules. Try 'em out

 

[spafe]

Cawdor will be.......ah forget it , we've got better ways to miss

just strap the grenade to a rat, no way to miss then

 

[Galtarr]

just strap the grenade to a rat, no way to miss then

And if you're a Goliath then just throw the rat?

 

[JawRippa]

I think that the easiest houserule would be giving hand-thrown grenades a -1 penalty or no penalty at all when targetting ground.

 

[daveh]

And if you're a Goliath then just throw the rat?

if you are a Goliath , just throw the Cawdor holding the grenade

 

[ntw3001]

It seems like the issue is the amount of scatter you get from missing. So you're trying to hit the spot juuuust in the middle of two boxes. Pretty tough to get it just right! Chances are you'll miss. But! When you miss, will you accidentally throw it 25' instead of 15? No. Will you throw it 5'? No. Will you throw it 90 degrees to the left or right? No. Worst case scenario, you'll get it a bit off and only catch one of them, if they were both at full distance from the epicentre. So it should scatter, like, 1".

Anyway, it seems like the correct solution is the one I've always suggested. You have to pick a target fighter (ignore this rule for non-damaging items like smoke) and place the blast marker so it fully covers that target and the centre is visible, then shoot at the centre of the blast marker (let's make the target a 25mm base for purposes of determining cover). It's subject to rules for choosing a target, so no more of the stupid blind-fire exceptions that seem to be the thing this rule is aimed at handling. If the problem is that blast weapons don't use target selection rules, just... don't have that problem. Have them use target selection rules.

if you like, you can make it an action for another fighter to communicate a target *they* can see (hey there's a guy right around this corner, get him), and that fighter would then become an available target to a fighter who can't see them themselves. Hiding round corners still won't counter missile launchers, you can lob grenades into rooms, whatever. As long as *someone* knows you have a target, you can throw a bomb over there.

 

[Scorpyon]

So using the bottle rules as they are is gamey but using the most broken combos from the trading post/black market goods (falsehood and frenzon collars) isn't?

Oh it completely is. I certainly wasnt defending that in the slightest. We even house rule banned the falsehoods just because of how broken they are, lol.

Re CGs it's just a Willpower roll to shoot them, which you will make half the time, and if you charge them (eg if you are Goliath) they are glass melee cannons.

Unfortunately for me as a mostly Goliath player, our Willpower rolls ar 9 or 10+ because they have shocking Willpower stats, lol