N18 N26 Conflicting rules - which one overrides the other?

[lastbrat]

Having read almost the whole rulebook, I have noted there are a few instances of rules conflicting with other rules. Most notably, with Wyrd powers.
A couple of questions:

1. "Invulnerable saves" - Does Gas trait overrule them (that is, it may be unmodifiable, but you're not allowed to roll the dice)? Or is it that you get to roll it always, like the Dodge skill (which is not technically a save)?
2. Wyrd power "Freeze time": it reduces a model's actions by one. What happens if you use this on a Supressed model? Do they lose all actions (since being supressed you only have the one remainig), or does it simply do nothing at all against supressed models?
3. Unrelated, but I saw a video by Wellywood where I believe he was explaining it wrong: Group activations: The way I read it, you decide how many models you attempt to group activate, then calculate the modifier (1-X, where X is the number of models activated at the same time as your Leader), then roll ONCE (and only once), to see if the activation is successful. This way, the risk increases with X, so it's up to you to choose. The way Wellywood explained it, is that you roll for each model, successively increasing the penalty, which to me sounds like too easy (there is zero risk of the action failing). How do YOU read this rule?

PS. We need a new Label (N18 no longer is applicable)

 

[cardyfreak]

I’d had the same thoughts on the Gas trait, was scouring the wording to try and figure it out. I couldn’t reconcile it within the rules so decided an invulnerable save wouldn’t be affected by Gas. They’re pretty rare I don’t think it breaks anything.

I also read the group activation as a one-shot; choose how many you want to try and take, and roll once. It’s interesting that anyone can do it now, not just leaders and champions.

As for the tag, only Malo can create them so in the meantime people will just have to add them to the thread title.

 

[TopsyKretts]

It would be a very easy to borrow an universal rule from kill team which has max/min +1/-1 action modifier. Can't imagine a game needs to modify actions by more than 1. Unless in extreme cases, drop the entire activation regardless of actions. No such rule here?

 

[lastbrat]

You're probably referring to my point nr 2? I would say that a Wyrd power should always have an effect (within reason), and this is clearly one of the things they haven't thought through when porting the old Wyrd power rules to N26. Wyrd powers who make you roll an ammor roll - same thing. What happens with weapons which no longer have an Ammo(x)? What are you supposed to roll against?

Similarly the fact that 3 (if you count Heavy, 4) of the Specialists pertain to shooting - for gangs who have gangers who are not allowed ranged weapons (e.g. Corpse grinders), this means the selection of useful specialties is almost halved. Another thing where they only looked at some House gangs (definitely not Goliaths, very likely Escher and Van Saar), and decided on these specialties, Wyrd powers and weapon traits.

 

[TopsyKretts]

It's an abstract, basically -1 action? If you suppress, then wyrd, you would want wyrd power to always have effect. I can question it like this: What if it was opposite? First wyrd power, down to 1 action. Then suppressed? Probably flash or blind still takes away entire activation. I don't know the details of the new rules so I may be wrong here. What if a fighter was flashed/blinded, it would lose all actions? And what if it was targeted by the wyrd power then? What effect should it have, -3 actions? -1 action after paying the tax for blind? But in general, I like the simplicity of max +1/-1 to actions. Yes, it means some attacks won't have effect on an already affected model.

 

[SirWalterManny]

(1) Gas says “Armour saves cannot be taken against attacks by a weapon with this trait.” If the invulnerable save is derived from armour (or field armour) then no save can be made - e.g. the invulnerable save from a Refractor Field.

That seem relatively clear. What doesn’t, on a re-read, and taking the trait description strictly as written is:
- A model’s innate ’Sv’ attribute is described as representing both how armoured they are and how well they can “roll with hits and make use of cover to minimise damage.” Does this count as an ‘armour save’ for Gas?
- if a model has no innate save (are there any models like this), does a +1/+2 save received from cover count as an armour save?

To both of these, I think the answer should be yes - Gas ignores any benefit of cover or a models ability to use it. But the actual wording on the trait could be clearer.

On p76, the Gas trait is used as an example of weapons which ignore saves, and this suggests the trait allows no saving roll to be made. This I think you be read as the intention of the rule.

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(2) Being ‘Suppressed’ means a model can perform one less action. Freeze Time also reduces a models actions by one. So a model which can perform three actions which is subject to both can perform no actions whilst under both effects.

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(3) Agree with your reading of rule. This seems pretty clear, and think Wellywood just made a mistake when rushing to get content out. He seems pretty open to being corrected and admits he may make mistakes.

 

[PalatineKatinka]

I think we're going to want an FAQ on Gas and other effects that don't allow saves, but as I read it Invulnerable saves only ignore modifiers (AP and Cover being most common) and don't protect against things that ignore saves entirely (with Respirators being a clearly stated exception in the case of Gas).

Freeze Time and Suppressed I'm not sure about. p40 says that being Suppressed means you perform one less action but p62 says it means you can only perform one action. Freeze time also limits the model to only performing a single action. If p62 is correct then the model gets one action, even if for two different reasons. If p40 is correct then they get zero actions as they get one less than a single action.

Until reading this I was sure that the Group activation was:
1. Select any number of Ready Fighters within 3".
2. Make a Ld-X check, where X is the number of Fighter selected after the first.
3. If successful, all selected Fighters may activate one at a time after completing the current activation.

Now, after rereading the rule and wondering how else it could be interpreted, "The Fighter selects any number of friendly Ready Fighters within 3" and makes a Leadership check with a -1 modifier per Fighter selected after the first." could be read as:
1. Select any number of Ready Fighters within 3".
2. Make a Ld-1 check for each Fighter selected except for the first Fighter.
3. After completing the current activation, activate each Fighter a check was passed for.

I am 99% sure that "per Fighter selected after the first" refers to how many -1 modifiers are applied and not to how many checks are needed. Especially as the next sentence refers to "the check", singular, allowing "other Fighters", plural, to activate.

 

[TopsyKretts]

How are the various save wordings? Because in previous edition it seemed every book phrased it differently. Saves were all over the place. Like "cannot be modified by AP" (ie. not boosted nor reduced) and "cannot be reduced by AP" (which could potentially increase against club).

 

[PalatineKatinka]

Most of the time the rules refer to the Save characteristic and protective equipment gives a bonus to the Save characteristic.
Invulnerable saves will have a stated value e.g. Refractor Fields give 5+ Invulnerable Save that can burnout, Respirators give a 5+ Invulnerable Save against Gas weapons.
Armour Save is rarely used but shows up in the Gas trait's description*, the Breaching trait's description and a paragraph saying that a Fighter may only make one** Save against an attack and has to choose between an Armour Save and an Invulnerable Save.
Invulnerable Saves are then defined as a Save that is not affected by any modifiers, such as cover or AP.
Armour Save is left undefined but seems to be the standard Save from the Save characteristic.

*The Gas trait says "Armour Saves cannot be taken" but the rules for Saves gives Gas as an example of a trait that will "disallow Save rolls" and "In such cases, regardless of any modifiers, no Save roll can be made.".

**Dodge is not an Invulnerable Save, or any other kind of Save, but allows a Model to ignore a hit on a D6 roll of 6+. If failed take a Save as normal. So you can only make one Save roll, and a Dodge roll before that.