NCE... No Cawdor Heavy Bolter?

Do you, in your campaigns, use house specific weapons?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 46.9%
  • No

    Votes: 17 53.1%

  • Total voters
    32

Gangrene

Juve
Oct 24, 2011
13
14
3
40
Sandusky, Ohio
I'm reading through the NCE rulebook. I'm not sure how I feel about gang specific weapons...

Anyway, as far as I know, there were 3 cawdor heavy models. Heavy Stubber, Heavy Bolter, and one with a grenade launcher...

I actually own this model : http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/229013-Cawdor Heavy Bolter.html

I've always played Cawdor... Is it silly I can't even use my stock models gear with the NCE rules?
 
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spafe

Executive Officer in charge of Hats
Staff member
Necromunda Custodian
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Feb 8, 2013
10,078
13,614
283
Tilehurst, U.k.
This is a common gripe and reason used against the HWL. The problem gets more pronounced when you look at things like goliaths holding lasguns etc. I'm pretty sure theres a list of every documented infringement of model invalidation by the HWL somewhere.

Long story short, if you want to start with a heavy bolter, go for it. The HWL is optional. Equally if your group is stringently keeping to it, then field a heavy with a rifle (if he's got a heavy bolter he will need a back up anyway) for the first game, then after then forgo one rare weapon roll and buy one (obvs you'll be 180 down in Gangrating and have 180 in stash during your first game). That's the easiest work around if your group uses it.

I tend to try and stick to the feel of them (maybe one lasgun tops in my goliath list etc), but that's more for flavor rather than strictly agreeing with it. I have no issue if I joined a group and they were playing it to the letter though, its just another hurdle for the low down gutter rats to overcome on their way to the top!
 

trollmeat

Hive Guilder
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Nov 5, 2014
2,886
4,643
138
While it sounds like a good idea to give each of the houses a more distinct/individual character by restricting their initial weapons selection, I don't think it works.

If people actually use the tactic of by-passing the House Weapons Lists by going into the first battle without having spent all of their credits (and getting a nice Underdog bonus to boot!), then something isn't right. That being said, I haven't seen this happen as I've never played in a campaign with House Weapons Lists.

I would much rather see some kind of change to the rare trade chart, making some items that are common into rare or only common to specific gangs/etc, than restrict what starting weapons are available.

...but, I'm a filthy Scavvy, so what weapons you all use doesn't bother me so much - I'll just be charging in without care whether you have Lascannons or Heavy Bolters with Hellfire ammo. :-D
 
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Tomcaet

Gang Champion
Nov 9, 2014
281
312
73
Łapy, Poland
I think of Necromunda as a mind game... A thought experiment... I like the idea of having the freedom to combine members, gear, etc... to make an interesting mix that is formidable to an opponent... Limiting to a list is limiting your creativity...
I'll be nitpicking, but this argument doesn't hold too well. You do, after all, limit your access to Skills by House, don't you? I agree on the mind game part, but you can look at the lists as the borders of our sandbox - the area on which we let our minds play. The Rules. But, you can always change the borders, get more sand...

In the campaigns (plural here might actually be an overstatement) I played we used the HWL. They don't place heavy limits on gear availability, common gear can ultimately still be bought by any gang at any time. After gang creation. :whistle: They create another level between Common and Rare. I think understand the critique, though. Our group had no original models "invalidated", so there wasn't a push against the HWL. There was this one Van Saar that wanted to get Swords as easily as Escher, but he settled for buying two "for the leader", against the HWL with the group's consent.
 
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MusingWarboss

Gang Hero
Oct 31, 2013
1,579
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I've never liked HWL, one of the big pluses of Necromunda was that everyone started equal and from there it was down to skill and luck as to how your gang progresses or dies. I can understand certain weapons being restricted as very rare but common items... Are commonly found surely??

I mean, they're gangs!! They'll use whatever stuff they can get their hands on!! It would be daft if you were to apply this to real-world gangs or criminal organisations.

It's another hangover from the GW produced "Underhive" edition where they decided to 40k 3rd Ed' it. Badly in most people's opinion. Yet again it was like no-one actually looked at the models before deciding arbitrarily what weapon could and could not be had. It's madness that 2/3 of the Heavy Weapons the Cawdors had were invalidated by a silly list. Why not just permit those three models weapons and restrict others instead??

No lasguns for Goliaths? What?? That was an option for the plastic models in the boxed game!! The most likely models to be converted into Goliaths? Catachan Jungle Fighters. What weapon do they predominantly hold... Yeah, a Lasgun. Well done GW!! :rolleyes:

I know these things can be accessed later on but so can anything really. The last thing Necromunda needed was a half-arsed attempt at "Codex: Cawdor" or "Codex: Escher" etc.

I'm actually surprised it's not been removed to an appendix in the NCE or revisited with a more logical eye on models produced. But I suppose we're in an age where the old models are less important except to collectors and for those converting their own the HWL works fine without much complication. Still hate the idea of restricting gangs though. Seems counterintuitive to what they are.
 

Gangrene

Juve
Oct 24, 2011
13
14
3
40
Sandusky, Ohio
"I agree on the mind game part, but you can look at the lists as the borders of our sandbox - the area on which we let our minds play. The Rules. But, you can always change the borders, get more sand..." Yeah, you can change the borders and get more sand... you can add an infinite amount of variations to starting gear and have many fun sub-forms of the game... I agree with that, but what is at the base of all of that? I would say the two problems with house weapon lists are firstly balance, a hard thing to achieve, and the models problem which is less of a problem. The most balanced way to start gangs is to actually have them have the same options and that is 100% balanced... Why not have that as the basis and then create many sub-forms of gang creation? Each mini-game would be less balanced to one degree or the other. The NCE and LRE gang weapon lists are then just two variations or sub-forms of that basic and balanced model.

"They create another level between Common and Rare." Another way to view the game is to try and make it "realistic". I often view the rules from that regard... The underhive is a melting pot of the houses. In a market system as in Necromunda, you literally visit a market... you are going to have things get blended together. If something works there will be a demand for it. That will encourage trade... All of that common stuff and uncommon stuff will get mixed together. "I mean, they're gangs!! They'll use whatever stuff they can get their hands on!! It would be daft if you were to apply this to real-world gangs or criminal organisations." I agree and not only will they use what's available... They'll use what they find to be effective. If something is working for other gangs, chances are others will try to emulate it... What works, works... That will override any fashion sensibilities and drive demand.

"I'm actually surprised it's not been removed to an appendix in the NCE" I'm leaning in that direction...
"or revisited with a more logical eye on models produced." The problem with that is that the artists making the models probably aren't the best basis for a balanced system.
 

Gangrene

Juve
Oct 24, 2011
13
14
3
40
Sandusky, Ohio
Let's look at that Cawdor list again... the leader has a boltgun... My Cawdor leader has a boltgun on his back... perfect... Later that leader list, after the first game, gets integrated into common weapons for the house...

This is how it must work at a Cawdor Underhive Market...

Okay, so at a market a Cawdor gang goes to... they'll have boltguns... How about heavy bolters... "NO, we'd never carry a big bolt gun we find them offensive to look at!".... How about the Bolt pistol? "Are you MAD?!? We Cawdor find the small size of the bolt pistol even more offensive! We piss on bolt pistols... if some trader wanders in with one we spit in his face! ONLY BOLTGUNS! Did you read the sign? Gosh!"
 

BeardLegend

I can't grow a beard
Mar 28, 2014
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Southwark, London, SE17
One of the big bases for the fluff factor of necromunda, when it was just setting itself up, was that the main stock houses below the spyre don't mingle, they compete.

From what I gather, the house weapons lists were an attempt to suggest that gangs from certain houses wouldn't normally frequent the markets that other houses set up. Cawdor gangs would buy Cawdor-made stuff from Cawdor traders. They wouldn't want to give up their cash to those disgusting Van Saar ... plus those markets would have been remote for them, making it harder to access the kinds of items that were produced commonly by other houses. ie: it takes a rare trade roll to get access to non HWL weapons and items.

That's my theory ... i've never actually played a campaign with HWL's. I get the impression that it's easier to play without them ... but i'd like to try it one day to find out if it's as restrictive and annoying as everyone assumes that it is. I just think that it holds the pace of a campaign back if rare-trade is restricted by the use of HWL's.

Edit: But you know, with the game having been out for 20 years, the fluff has been re-imagined a number of times by authors and was never solid anyway.
 

Dave McC

Juve
Apr 14, 2015
35
41
18
Deeside, North Wales
They don't look too bad but I'll have to work through them to be sure. Given the age of most of our group we've probably all still got the original sustained fire dice. I had a discussion about this with Gav Thorpe years ago as I felt Gorkamorka handled sustained fire better than Necromunda did. NM rolled to hit and then rolled to see how many shots so it was quite likely that all shots might miss. GM rolled for the number of shots then rolled to hit for each. Unlikely to riddle a target but a good chance of a hit.
 

jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
11
22
3
38
Maitland, Florida
The House Weapons List has been controversial ever since it was introduced. Originally the list was more or less what the metal models available were equipped with. We don't like them, and we don't use them. It never made sense to me that Goliaths would have a preference as a house towards a certain kind of gun or hand weapon. Gangers are going to use whatever they have. Anyway, I actually like that the HWL exists. There's nothing wrong with a whole variety of optional rules that groups can pick and choose from. We got rid of the -1 armor save on lasguns, for example. Play with what works for you, and don't be afraid to tinker. Necromunda has been dead for so long that the game really belongs to those of us who still play it and love it, and each group is going to have its own experiences with the game that makes it unique!
 

BeardLegend

I can't grow a beard
Mar 28, 2014
1,614
1,877
168
Southwark, London, SE17
Necromunda has been dead for so long that the game really belongs to those of us who still play it and love it, and each group is going to have its own experiences with the game that makes it unique!
Necromunda never died. It simply remained unsupported. This community is an attempt to find some common ground and work to a degree of consensus among the rules. Lots of house rules get used ... but only the ones that work.

Edit: except sometimes when they don't?
 
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ntw3001

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
1,098
1,798
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Essex, UK
I'm not really sure why Underhive got so much hate. IIRC the only differences were sustained fire (good change), high impact (good change), template changes (neutral), and the HWL (stupid, but at least easy to ignore). Take away the HWL and it's a very marginally better game than the ORB.
 

jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
11
22
3
38
Maitland, Florida
I liked the tiny hand flamer template, and the old classic red sustained fire dice, but, yes, I agree it wasn't anything awful. To me, the two largest issues with Necromunda at the time were the ubiquity of the lasgun, and the must-have nature of the parry. Both issues led to gangs using one kind of basic weapon and one kind of HTH weapon exclusively, and that is boring. Diversity in gear is one of the fun aspects that I enjoy about Necromunda, and sadly Underhive didn't address those issues.
 

Doghead13

Gang Hero
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Dec 28, 2014
1,065
2,489
123
Forres, Scotland
Oh God, house weapon lists. Because common doesn't mean common, and nobody can buy more than one thing in a single shopping trip. They're a logical extension only of the post-3rd-ed 40k 'You must use the official approved stuff in the official approved way, officially, creativity is bad and you should feel bad for doing it. Fnord.' mindset. Can't stand 'em, can't for the life of me think why they haven't been quietly excised from the annals of NCE.

You hear the reasoning that it's to give each house type more of a 'feel'. Kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater IM(NS)HO - I really do not think that every Cawdor gang (or whatever) being virtually forced to start out just (or just about) the same as every other gang from the same house is a positive change in a game largely about gang customisation.

And besides, I cannot for the life of me remember house gangs seeming 'same-y' under ORB.
 

ntw3001

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
1,098
1,798
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Essex, UK
Oh God, house weapon lists. Because common doesn't mean common, and nobody can buy more than one thing in a single shopping trip.
Maybe the Guilder markets just don't supply baskets >_>

Speaking of Guilders, pretty much all trade is in the hands of a neutral party so the idea that they might refuse to sell a lasgun to a Goliath (unless that Goliath has been in at least one fight and promises not to buy anything else, which is basically the exact opposite of a special offer) doesn't make any sense at all.
 

chaosticket

Ganger
Jun 17, 2015
102
25
28
united states of america
I remember back in the original rulebook there was no such thing as house weapon lists. The outlanders expansions had each new outlander gang far from just another vanilla change in models.

The living rulebook messed things up by having themes for your starting gear which could really mess you up. " wait my Van Saar team is now illegal because they start with swords?"

I just wouldnt follow any vanilla house specific rules as it doesnt really add to the game but make your first game in a campaign weird.
 
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