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NCE NCE/OCE Rules help please

Tiny

Hive Guilder
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New @Tiny many of the shots were 7+ and 8+ in the winds meaning ammo rolls could happen without guaranteed hits, combined with OW and the odd bit of -1 cover..His 2 heavy stubbers both ran out of ammo due to the sheer number of shots fired from having to run down the (sometimes)
That's the player's fault for taking 7/8+ shots without thinking about ammo rolls. Weapon reloads are common equipment and quite handy.

From reading your reports, IMO you have had 2 of the most difficult games for the defender due to Treacherous Conditions, poor choices and bad luck and this is causing you to believe the scenario is bad.

Pit Slaves will mulch pretty much any gang in any scenario with -2 to hit on shooting.

6 sustained fire shots even when the targets had already dropped but he did take 3 wounds off 2 of my dual wound minis.
This is the second game of the campaign yet with a small gang like Pit Slaves you have multiple guys with Sprint skill and multiple guys with 2W? Seems like you had a lot of good luck with that gang so far.

I will reduce the highest level rewards a bit and see how we get on. In the meantime, please give a few test games a go without TCs.

I put down alot of difficulty terrain this match but was countered with simple bridges/pontoons being placed over them.
Did you roll off to choose table edge? If you win, make sure you pick a side perpendicular to the bridges. Also if you're playing a Shooting heavy gang, try to force a few open areas with your terrain placement and block off any obvious safe routes.
 

Tiny

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When i crunched the numbers on treach conditions (subjective) my analysis was that if you scored the 72% chance of a condition, roughly 38% favoured hth gangs, 19% hindered hth gangs and 42% was shit for both.. I feel this to be reasonable as outlanders are mainly closer ranged gangs fighting in desperation and without the backup of heavy weapons.
I found 13 were detrimental to shooting, 4 detrimental to CC and the rest either did nothing or affected gangs equally. Bear in mind that anything that affects models on gantries is more likely to affect a shooting based gang and also anything that affects models on the tabletop is more likely to affect CC oriented gangs.
 

Spiraling Cadaver

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Jun 8, 2018
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I of course did not elect for treacherous condituons and an outlander player will always choose this against me so I dont exactly have a choice lol
With the 7/8 plus shots. I did so because there was never going to be a better shot even if I took overwatching shots at targets in the open.
 

Draconic

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Thanks for fielding our questions Tiny. Im not sure what i think about the scenario i just had disgruntled players and decided to field it to the yak to draw on your experience. As Gm of the campaign i'm cautious of house ruling things that could potentially have big knock on effects later. That caravan was game 3 for me and i had 2 guys with an extra wound and 1 sprinter. Slaves do start with a starting advance so i could throw a little bit of extra weight around in these first few games by leaning on my stronger pieces, the sprint on my fighter was a welcome lucky advance but the rest of my advances have been par for the course.
 

Tiny

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I of course did not elect for treacherous condituons and an outlander player will always choose this against me so I dont exactly have a choice lol
Yep, I will be looking over the TCs as I'm not happy with the way they are more likely to favour CC gangs at the moment.

With the 7/8 plus shots. I did so because there was never going to be a better shot even if I took overwatching shots at targets in the open.
Yeah, its a tough one. Do you hold off and wait for an easier shot or hope for the best on a 7+? Within 20" you'd be getting 6+ shots on a stubber (assuming BS3 heavy on overwatch at a target in the open with the "hang onto your hoods" TC).

As I said, try the scenario without TCs. Try a Gang Fight with the same TCs and see how you fare. Once we do that we can judge the Caravan scenario a little more fairly.

In the next round of amendments for 2020 I will be revisiting any scenarios that seem to be an issue. The Caravan scenario will likely always be an issue one way or another.
 
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Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
Yak Comp 2nd Place
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Dumb question time! In the blast and flamer template rules it mentions the model being fully or partially covered by the template. Is this the model as in the bit depicting the dude, or the model as in the entire model including the base? (Edit - scenic base protruding bits excepted)

I've always included the base - and allocated partial hits etc on the base being partially covered. Am I wrong?

I've done this automatically since the year dot, with many many groups and through assorted TribeMeets etc, dealing and receiving hits the same way, but my wife thought by the wording it should just be the dude and now I'm suffering an existential crisis because I can't find anything to support how I've always done it :LOL:

(Anecdotally I think most partial hits cover part of the dude anyway, so not much of a (dis)advanage to be had).
 
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Tiny

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Maybe two versions of the Caravan scenario? House and Outlanders versions with differing gang allowances?
All gangs can be tweaked to have a ton of models. I had a Goliath gang with 15 members plus a Beastmaster in a previous campaign.

Dumb question time! In the blast and flamer template rules it mentions the model being fully or partially covered by the template. Is this the model as in the bit depicting the dude, or the model as in the entire model including the base? (Edit - scenic base protruding bits excepted)

I've always included the base - and allocated partial hits etc on the base being partially covered. Am I wrong?

I've done this automatically since the year dot, with many many groups and through assorted TribeMeets etc, dealing and receiving hits the same way, but my wife thought by the wording it should just be the dude and now I'm suffering an existential crisis because I can't find anything to support how I've always done it :LOL:

(Anecdotally I think most partial hits cover part of the dude anyway, so not much of a (dis)advanage to be had).
For me, the model includes the base when determining template hits but counts as an extremity when determining cover (i.e. if only a bit of the base is in cover they don't get cover).
 
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Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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For me, the model includes the base when determining template hits but counts as an extremity when determining cover (i.e. if only a bit of the base is in cover they don't get cover).
Yeah, that's how I've always played it.
 

Kitcar

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Jan 3, 2017
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For me, the model includes the base when determining template hits but counts as an extremity when determining cover (i.e. if only a bit of the base is in cover they don't get cover).
I agree, and think when you buy a ganger for the game, the model includes the base. 40k at some point interpreted it as only the base if it had one.
 

Punktaku

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Somewhere in the first few editions of 40k stuff was measured with bases. "If template covers any part of the targets base" "if the base is touching the obstacle" "models in base to base contact" sorts of things.
 
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gamepimp

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Feb 6, 2018
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We generally take all measurements from base of model. Otherwise there's just too much discrepancy between model poses.
"My ganger has his gun extended so if I measure from that I gain an extra inch. Oh, you want to shoot back? Sorry but you're out of range as gun tips don't count for model targeting"
That being said, we do not include the base at all when determining cover modifier.
 
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undertaker

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For me, the model includes the base when determining template hits but counts as an extremity when determining cover (i.e. if only a bit of the base is in cover they don't get cover).
Same here. For templates, the model is as big as their base (not counting protrusions). If they are pinned or down, you stand them up to see how much of their base is covered, which is actually in the rulebook.

Going back to the Caravan scenario, I would also recommend limiting the reward. Say to 90, 120, and 180 credits for the top three tiers, respectively, which is the maximum of what you could have gotten in the previous NCE edition.

Also note that while models who get off the table do not count as casualties for bottling, they still reduce the number of attackers on the table, so lower the threshold for bottling. e.g. 10 attackers have 2 fighters down. 2 attackers get off the edge, so now atttackers have 8 fighters and 2 down, so must make bottle tests.
I think that is incorrect. From the main rulebook:
THE BOTTLE ROLL
The Bottle roll is a special test the player must make at the start of his turn, before all other actions, if a quarter (25%) or more of his gang is down or out of action. For example, in a gang of 10 men a test is required if 3 or more men are down or out of action.

Sometimes not all gang members will show up to a fight or may arrive later as reinforcements. Only the fighters that have participated in the game thus far are used to determine when a Bottle roll is needed – ie not the total size of the full gang.

Some scenarios also allow fighters to voluntarily leave the fight. For example, attackers in a Hit & Run can move off a table edge when they have completed their mission. Fighters that leave a fight do not count as down or out of action for purposes of the Bottle roll.
In combination, those three paragraphs mean that attackers who participated in the fight, and made it off the opposing table edge, still count towards the total gang size for the purposes of bottle rolls. So if 10 went in, 2 were downed, and 2 made it off the edge, then you would have 2/10 = 20 % down and no need to take Bottle tests.

This scenario is a bit weird when it comes to the End Game conditions, and probably needs tweaking. Currently it states:
ENDING THE GAME
The game ends if all the attackers are either down, out of action or have left the table. It also ends if the attackers fail a Bottle roll, or volunteer to bottle out.
This means that even after the defenders have bottled, the remaining attackers have to actually walk off the opposing table edge or bottle out. If the attackers are on Bottle tests already, they might still Bottle out, even when there are no defenders. It also means the attacking player has to then carry on with the game without an opponent to see if they can get anyone else off the opposing edge before the remainder fail their Bottle check. Then, if both gangs Bottle, who is the winner for income and XP reward purposes? Clearly the situation is ridiculous. The rules need a clause similar to the one for Scavengers:
If a gang fails a Bottle roll then the game ends immediately. The gang that bottles out loses the game and the other side wins and is left in possession of the battlefield. If the defender bottles out, then the remaining attackers count as breaking through to loot the caravan.
Note, I am presuming it is the intention of the rules that the remainder of the attackers count as breaking through if the defender bottles. Otherwise the defender could easily force an early end to the game and deny any rewards to the attacker by simply running a few people at the enemy and voluntarily Bottling early before any attackers can make it to the opposing table edge.

And while on the subject of Scavvies in Caravan scenarios, it should probably be clarified that Zombies cannot loot the Caravan, in case that was happening in your games @Draconic @Spiraling Cadaver . As it states in their description:
Zombies cannot interact with non-fighter scenario objectives – eg loot counters. They don't contribute
towards winning or losing conditions ...
 

Spiraling Cadaver

New Member
Jun 8, 2018
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Nah we werent counting the zombies for rewards. I did however bottle out in the game against scavvies but only 2 of them had gotten off the table edge at this point but we counted the rest of gang as having looted the caravan similar to scavengers scenario where if a gang bottles out the other gang would receive all unobtained loot crates.
Is this correct?
 

Spiraling Cadaver

New Member
Jun 8, 2018
8
12
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Australia
Also in a previous edition of the caravan scenario I read it as fluff but still... for the attackers when they didnt get an entire gang on the table the remaining members not present are sent to "divert the caravan guards attention"
With the entire gang on the table in the current scenario who is diverting their attentions now and what are said guards doing exactly if not?
Or am I just trolling now.. :ROFLMAO: