[NCE] Shooting Skills & Heavies

Commissariat

Ganger
Mar 9, 2017
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For Gang Leaders & Heavies
Having played a lot of ORB and then transitioned into having played at least forty games of NCE: The shooting skills all seem washed down. Half of them only benefit basic/pistols and the other half are decent but not worth the risk of rolling a basic-weapon advance. If you are a Gang Leader or a Heavy, you generally just deny that this skill table exists. If you are a Ganger, it is a decent table but if you ever get Specialist it instantly becomes a near-dead table or Specialist becomes a dead skill.

I know Shooting kinda scales better than Melee in a campaign, but the Shooting skills are quite uninspiring. Unless you are a pistol-whipper or a basic-doge, you are disinterested in the shooting skills.

Would it make sense to give Heavies and/or Gang leaders exceptions to the shooting skill restrictions? Hip-shooting would end up being restricted to standard move when using heavy weapons like the old Bulging Biceps. Rapid Fire Heavies and hip-shooting flamers would be a thing, but only possible on a minority of your team.

Just throwing thoughts and feelings in the air. Any thoughts from the other hive streets?
 

spafe

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Do you need your heavies and leaders to become even better shots though? they already bring the bigger guns to the party and have stuff going for them. It's your basic chaps who need the help with these skill tables to really let them contribute more to the gang than a heavy who already is toting a autocannon.

Just my intial thoughts, although I do tend to play goliath and cawdor who don't get access to shooting tables much... but my orlocks and van saar would happily roll on shooting table a fair bit.
 
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Commissariat

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I do not think it is necessarily a matter of them "needing" the shooting table, but the shooting table should be a bit interesting for them no? The shooting table has had a reputation in our league, a league that is almost entirely melee gangs, for being unattractive. This reputation has prompted the probing of the field to see others' experiences/opinions on the shooting table.
 
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Ben_S

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Hasn't it always been the case that the Shooting skills were pretty useless for Heavies? It's odd that they all get this, because shooting is what they do, but most of them don't really work.

I have seen home-brewed 'Heavy-only' skills, which I thought were a good idea.
 
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spafe

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@Ben_S having jsut been re reading through guants ghosts books... I always imagine heavies to be like try again bragg... heavy weapon weilders who are crap shots but compensate by toting around crew served weapons as 'heavy' rifles.
 

Ben_S

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That's fair enough, but then it doesn't explain why most (all?) of them get access to shooting skills. That's what I find odd.
 

Commissariat

Ganger
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I agree that either Heavies need to get some Shooting Skill love (perhaps Specialist skill unlocks the ability to use shooting skills with special weapons for heavies or in general) or that Heavies need to not have access to Shooting Skills and replace that with Ferocity or whatever other skill their faction has.

Techno (Default)
Ferocity (Secondary)
Muscle/Agility/Stealth (Tertiary)
Agility/Stealth/Muscle (Based on Faction)

I can see present-day heavies have the shooting skills as a crude way to prevent them from getting wide-access to Agility/Stealth as the only other option barring Combat skills, but it just doesn't make sense from a design standpoint that most all Heavies have Shooting Skills and end up having those skills be almost useless for them.
 
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p0dde

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I don't agree with the analysis that the skills are bad. The skills are up to par if you look at other skills groups, except techno, which obviously is the strongest group.

If my take on the Shooting skills is correct (?) :whistle: they are all very useful for at heavy.

Crack shot is great with all the non-high-impact weapons, and amazing with high impact weapons. (Edit: High Impact and Crack Shot love eachother, as pointed out by @Commissariat in post below)

Fast shot, still works with move-or-fire weapons, right? If so, that must be the strongest skill for a heavy, essentially doing the same as the rare item Suspensors. Well even better because of the strategic advantage and because pinning your opponent's fighters in their turn, takes twice as long to recover from.

Gunfighter: Get two auto pistols, and you can start pinning everyone who tries to ambush you (or bolt pistols if you can afford it and want to do some damage, or Plasma Pistols(!), if you have Nerves of Steel and toughness 4, and don't care about leaking plasma all over yourself).

Hip Shooting: Get a Plasma Pistol, and if any an enemy gets within 16" of you, you run to them, and probably get to avoid cover, and all in all get a +1 to hit strength 5 shot.

Marksman: its uses are obvious.

Rapid Fire: Granted, This one does nothing for you, if your are using a heavy stubber or heavy bolter, as they would always give you get you better shots, But if you use any other heavy weapon, get a Boltgun and then you go on overwatch. During you opponents turn you can decide what weapon to use, and if you want to use the lower strength weapon, with a re-roll (and in some case +1 to hit short range), or your heavy weapon.
 
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Commissariat

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Lots of good points @p0dde !

High Impact and Crack Shot love eachother.
I find Gunfighter, Rapid Fire, and Hip Shooting to be the least useful. They are only worthwhile if you put the 15-50 rating into your guy to use the skills. The same could be said for Combat, but you really "shouldn't" be rolling on Combat.
 
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sebwiers

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Feb 17, 2011
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Lots of good points @p0ddeThe same could be said for Combat, but you really "shouldn't" be rolling on Combat.

My BS2 (blind in one eye) heavy would maybe argue otherwise. Seems like I end up with one in most gangs. But yeah, they usually roll techno (unless I already have Medic and Armorer). Because hey, who needs combat when you have a Flamer?
 

undertaker

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Fast shot, still works with move-or-fire weapons, right? If so, that must be the strongest skill for a heavy, essentially doing the same as the rare item Suspensors. Well even better because of the strategic advantage and because pinning your opponent's fighters in their turn, takes twice as long to recover from.

The skill description is:
The model is allowed to go onto overwatch even if he moved in the same turn. However, he still cannot go onto overwatch if he ran or charged.

By my understanding, going on overwatch doesn't override the move-or-fire rule of heavy weapons. If the heavy had a backup pistol or something, they would be able to move and shoot on overwatch with that, otherwise the skill is useless.
 
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Fold

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Technically you won't be firing in the turn you move.

Your turn - move and go on overwatch
Their turn - shoot

At no point do you seem to break the "move or fire" rule. Although the wording is not very clear in the NCE as it says "a fighter cannot fire if he moved during his movement phase". I don't know if the restriction is intended to last until the opponents turn.
 

Commissariat

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That was my confusion too. "during his movement phase" suggests that the model cannot shoot if he has moved in their latest move phase and it is sort of checked in each shooting phase. "Did he move? Yes/No; If yes: He can't shoot"
 
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undertaker

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The heavy weapons description says:

"a fighter cannot fire a heavy weapon if he moved during his movement phase"

This rule is specifically modified if the weapon is fitted with a Suspensor:

"A heavy weapon fitted with a suspensor ignores the normal move or fire restriction allowing the model to both move and shoot in the same turn, just like a normal gun."

There is no mention of being able to move and fire with a heavy weapon in the Fast Shot description. It only says you are able to go on overwatch after moving. If you happen to have both Fast Shot and a Suspensor, only then could you move and shoot on overwatch with the heavy weapon.
 

Commissariat

Ganger
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And a counterpoint could be "but Suspensor only says [In the same turn] which would prevent fast shot" but I believe [just like a normal gun] is enough to say that it is able to be used with Fast Shot. Assuming this interpretation of Undertaker's is correct.

[Normal Gun] could be a little weird as a wording choice, but I suppose it should be obvious that it is referring to weapons without Move or Fire.
 
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