NCE Necromunda Community Edition

Discussion in 'Rules, Mechanics & Skills' started by Tiny, Mar 9, 2018.

  1. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    As @Anthony has sadly given up the mantle of NCE Custodian, I have agreed to take over the role of updating and overseeing the NCE project. This new thread will take over where he left off.

    Note this ruleset is based on the original Necromunda rules first released in 1995 (or more accurately the Living Rulebook edition).

    This topic serves as a place to keep updated on the development of the Community Edition fan rules. There's download links, update news, proposed rule changes and you're welcome to post minor suggestions and queries. Larger suggestions and discussions should be made in a new topic instead of posting it in here so the wider community can respond to it and it makes later topic searching much easier.

    Necromunda: Community Edition
    Outlanders: Community Edition
    Latest version: 2018 edition
    You can find a log of all previous rule changes here.

    Latest News
    As you can read here @Anthony will be taking a break from NCE duties for the foreseeable future.

    As @Anthony has sadly given up the mantle of NCE Custodian, I have agreed to take over the role. Hopefully we can continue to make this project as amazing as it can possibly be.

    So just what is this CE rulebook anyway?

    The NCE started as @Anthony 's personal project to compile the house rules used in his campaign into a rulebook that he could print off. After making it public some people showed an interest in using it themselves and so he began updating it based on their feedback. The OCE was compiled much later to fully incorporate the original Outlander rules as part of the NCE.

    What are its aims?
    To better balance the various weapons, skills, gangs, etc, to clarify ambiguities, patch up rule holes, as well as minor tweaks to improve general gameplay. There's also a few new toys to play with too.

    When does it get updated?
    It used to be updated in irregular intervals, but now it's going to be updated annually at the end of each year.

    Can I edit out changes I don't like?
    Yes, the PDFs are unprotected and can be freely edited so you're welcome to change it to suite your group's preferences. The NCE also uses the official Necromunda Online Rulebook as a template so it's easier to selectively use pages. Note there seems to be an issue with editing the NCE using Adobe Acrobat as discussed here.

    Are you going to add more gangs, expansions, etc?
    Nope, the aim is more to just provide a balanced core rule base that players can then add to themselves in whatever ways they prefer.

    Now that Anthony has taken an extended break from updating NCE, what are the future plans?
    The document will be updated with any required amendments on an annual basis, hopefully around the end of the year, following any major YakTribe events where clarifications and possible amendments are likely to be spotted.

    I do not plan to re-write much of the document as Anthony has already done an excellent job of the rules tweaks. I would call the current version 99% done with very few tweaks required. I prefer instead to look into any deviations from ORB and LRB versions with fresh eyes to ensure they are still required and still make sense in the wider context of the document and to fix a small number of existing inconsistencies. Suggestions and clarifications are still very much appreciated.

    Thank you all for your continued support of the project.
    #1 Tiny, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  2. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    Outstanding Issues & Suggestions

    2020 Update

    To be discussed:

    - Do hiding rules require further work?
    - Change Settlement to not give free Gangers to Pit Slaves?
    - Auto Repairer - Add value to rating? Cost too cheap now less easy to destroy?
    - Wounding Hit XP - Should be XP only from hits that wound, not per wound caused.
    - Look at Caravan scenario. Rewards too high. Possible time limit for attackers.
    - Treacherous conditions - Too many detrimental to shooting heavy gangs.
    -Win conditions for Caravan & The Hit


    P95 - Guilder Contact - Loot counters from any scenario affected, not just listed scenarios.
    P111 - Typo, change D6+3 to D3+3.
    Clarify models leaving the table for bottle rolls.
    Re-add bookmarks to PDF

    P39 - Plague Zombies should not cause morale tests or help avoid pinning.
    P29 - Caravan, Ending the Game - Word similarly to scavengers?

    2019 Update

    To be discussed:

    - Hand Flamer auto misses partial hits so very short range targets are unable to be hit.
    - Deflect skill and Parry are very similar but subtly different, causing confusion
    - Caravan & Loot & Pillage random attackers makes for odd scenarios.
    - A model going into hiding does not stop him from shooting in that turn so no downside to hiding every fighter possible.
    - Attacking terrain and noise / ammo rolls. Should Grenades cause noise and ammo roll?
    - Should CC / Sustained fire test to set off the alarm per shot / attack or per combatant?
    - Scavengers scenario - Change number of loot counters to D3+3 (from D6)?

    - P29 Grenades attacking terrain need to make noise and ammo roll as per shooting. *
    - P20 Template shots where both long edges touch a model's base count as fully covered, not as partial. *
    - P117 Amend / Clarify CC and Sustained fire to set off alarm per attack / shot fired. *
    - P111 Scavengers scenario - Change number of loot counters to D3+3 (from D6)? *
    - P11 Hiding to stop model from shooting that turn.*
    - P110 & 115 - If the losing gang has at least three enemy models taken out of action... - reword as incorrect.*
    - P110 & 115 Gang fight & Slightly increase likelihood of territory changing hands. Where "three times" as many casualties are needed, change to "twice".*
    - P21 Amend wording of overwatch to clarify one shot only (multiple shots allowed via skills or sustained fire). *
    - P83 Death of a Leader - change "cost remains at 50 credits" to "cost does not change". *
    - P78 Cawdor HWL - Remove Missile Launcher & Meltagun. Add Grenade Launcher and Heavy Bolter. *
    - P54 Typo in the Ratskin Map entry. There is an errant "f" in front of "D6" in option 2 *
    - P22 #6 change "troops" to "fighters". *


    - OCE P56 - Spyrer starting xp, change to 10+D3 to remain in line with other gangs.*
    - OCE P29 In "The Hit" scenario (OCE) if Leader is missing game (e.g. for OBW) target is highest Ld. *
    - OCE P39 Plague Zombies - if bait not used, may be kept for a future game. *
    - OCE P38, 44, 48, 59 Clarify wording on weapon list availability for outlanders gang members where required. *
    - OCE P27-31 Amend number of fighters and loot in Caravan, L&P and Hunters Scenarios.*
    - OCE P52 line 3, change btood to blood. *
    - OCE P53 Equipment 2nd paragraph, change "arments" to "armaments". *
    #2 Tiny, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  3. Stoof

    Stoof Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
    Tribe Council Yak Comp 2nd Place

    Hand flamer - We have worked before that if the thin part of the template crosses the middle of the target's base*, it counts as a solid hit.

    We had a long and strenuous, and sometimes slightly heated, discussion on Hiding before the last update that ultimately never went anywhere. I feel this was a shame, and we should have been able to work something out sensibly. I am inclined to suggest an N17 style where hiding gimps you in some way - as you say, at the moment there is incentive to (and lots of people do) hide everyone at every opportunity, and the hiding rule as is can cause some serious issues - largely revolving around being hidden behind partial cover i.e. if your foot is obscured by a single small cardboard box, or there is a lamppost between you and the enemy, you can remain hidden**.

    If hiding a) halved your move and/or b) prevented you shooting and/or c) did not prevent you being charged (as per ORB) we might start to get somewhere. I really think reference to hiding when only in partial cover (<50%) needs to be removed too, so you must be in cover (>50%) or out of sight to hide.

    *thin being the part thinner than a base's diamater.
    **I have played against this person.
    #3 Stoof, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    Benoksen, undertaker and Tiny like this.
  4. p0dde

    p0dde Gang Champion
    Yak Philanthropist

    @Stoof I agree. Not being able to fix hiding was a big blow. I have to admit that it made me doubt the relevance/future of a community edition. So much work, and high level analysis and discussion, with oversight of a highly capable editor, and we did not get a result. I guess the timing of N17 happening in the background interfered in a way, but still.

    For me the four rules topics above are non-issues, no offence @Tiny, but I do not see the, doing much for the game. I don't mind hand flamers being 'peculiar', and that is just how flamer templates are shaped. Deflect is a good Combat skill. Sort of a super-parry. I like it. We have discussed Caravan before, and for me it fits the role of a high risk/reward scenario. Lastly I am not sure there should be a penalty for hiding. It would make the game more difficult, but is that needed?
    Stoof, undertaker and Tiny like this.
  5. undertaker

    undertaker Gang Champion

    Could you please make a note of this typo:
    Also, feel there are still problems with the Attacking Terrain section, so I have started a discussion here.
    Tiny and spafe like this.
  6. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    My thoughts on outstanding issues:

    Hand Flamer - In the main template rules, say that should both long edges of the template touch the same model's base, it counts as a full hit as opposed to a partial. This changes all template weapons to be slightly better.

    Alternatively, and probably more sensibly, make Hand Flamer partials hit only on 5+ as opposed to auto miss. This can be explained as the fighter being close enough that the jet of flame can pass by them but still has a chance of hitting. Possibly amend the Heavy Flamer so partials work on a 3+ as opposed to auto hitting and we have some real consistency, particularly with ammo roll and catch fire rolls being the same. Makes Hand Flamer slightly better and Heavy slightly worse but seems ok at current points levels.

    Hiding - I believe that since a fighter can no longer charge a hidden fighter it is simply too powerful. I reckon that adding "a model may not shoot in a turn it goes into hiding" would fix a lot of the issues with it. I agree that needing 50%+ cover should be a requirement. I too have played against that person who hides behind a lamp post or behind the brick in front of the model's foot.

    Deflect Skill - IMO parry only being able to force a reroll if the opponent's dice is higher than yours is pretty bad. Means that parry vs a model with higher WS or a Pit Slave with a hammer is pretty useless entirely. I don't see what was wrong with a parry simply forcing the opponent to reroll one dice, particularly now swords cost 50% more than ORB. Perhaps don't allow multiple sword parries to stack? Deflect skill would then just revert back to allowing a parry without a sword or a second parry if already equipped with a sword.

    OCE Scenarios - Sad to see neither of these played during Tribemeet. To me it means there is something wrong. Caravan has previously been one of my favourite scenarios ever so was rather miffed to find it so extensively altered. Loot and Pillage was also a fun one for outlaw gangs. I am going to attempt to re-fix these starting from the original Outlanders versions using full attacking gangs. This may take some time and require playtesting but I would like to keep them in the spirit of the original Outlanders versions (i.e. Caravan is an all out assault against a guilder caravan, not a half-arsed sneaky attempt with a few random gang members).

    The rules issues were brought up at Tribemeet. They are affecting people's games so would like to see them addressed. We may as well fix them if we can. If not, no big deal. You can always continue to play whichever version of NCE you like if you don't like further changes.
    #6 Tiny, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
    Jlove, Stoof, spafe and 2 others like this.
  7. Stoof

    Stoof Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
    Tribe Council Yak Comp 2nd Place

    I like the idea of amending the partials from Auto miss/4+/Auto hit, I think that sould work out OK. You will still be missed most of the time if partialled by a hand flamer and hit most of the time if partialled by a heavy flamer (y)

    I've got to agree with @p0dde on the parry/deflect thing I'm afraid. I don't think this is a problem. Whilst I agree they very similar and can be confused, I don't think Deflect being a super-parry is a problem. It's a good skill, I like it, and a like how Parry works. I think the fact it's hard to be sucessful against a hammer with it works ok - a big heavy hammer swinging against a relatively light sword is hard to parry (personal experience this one! - used to do medieval fencing).

    I don't have enough experience with outlander scenarios to contribute at this point, but I can probably playtest.
    undertaker and Tiny like this.
  8. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    Perhaps just some clarification in the wording that it doesn't work the same way as a parry is all that is needed to avoid confusion. I still find the current parry rules to be fairly poor but if folks were finding swords too OP then that's cool.
    Stoof and undertaker like this.
  9. SirFrog

    SirFrog Gang Champion

    My two cents on these issues.

    Hand flamer:

    I like the ruling that if both edges overlapping the base counts as a full hit. However, I also recall that it used to be 5+/4+/3+ for hand, regular and heavy flamer, so either would probably be fine.

    If I'm not entirely mistaken, adding "a model may not shoot in a turn it goes into hiding" will only ever affect fighters with silenced weapons.
    • If you went into hiding and weren't going to shoot anyway, nothing changes.
    • If you go into hiding and fire a regular weapon in the shooting phase, you're automatically not hidden any more unless
    • If you hide and fire a silenced weapon, there's a 4+ to remain hidden.
    So... we're really only addressing a 50% chance in an edge case? Is that edge case such an issue that it warrants an extra rule?

    I've got no strong opinions on the others, to be honest.
    Ben_S, undertaker and Tiny like this.
  10. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    Say you have 3 guys wanting to shoot the same target. A, B and C.

    Currently, they all hide. Attacker A shoots, taking the target OOA. Now B and C are safely hidden with no risk.

    If unable to hide and shoot they would instead have all stayed ready to shoot, so B and C would not be hidden.

    Either you want to hide or you want to shoot. IMO you can't make the decision later after the rest of your gang shoots.
    dnalloht, Benoksen, Ben_S and 3 others like this.
  11. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    Now you mention it, wasn't that already a thing in LRB when the templates changed to a single size? Not sure why this got changed tbh. Anyone?
    Stoof and undertaker like this.
  12. undertaker

    undertaker Gang Champion

    Hand Flamer - Both proposed options seem OK. I like the symmetry of having partials hit on 5+ on Hand Flamers and 3+ on Heavy Flamers.

    Hiding - As I have said before, I believe you should be able to declare charges against hidden fighters and that you should need at least 50% cover. Not being able to shoot on the turn you go into hiding seems sensible and would certainly stop me handing out a 'Hidden' marker to every single one of my gangers every turn of every game, only to take them away every turn of every game. So tedious. (n)

    Deflect Skill - Currently, this skill is the only way for Frenzied fighters to block attacks. If we do change this to simply be a Parry, perhaps the Frenzy section should say that frenzied models cannot parry using weapons. Not sure about changing the main Parry rules to force reroll of any dice, rather than just ones that are higher than yours.

    OCE Scenarios - You are right, Tribe Meet 2018 would have been a perfect opportunity to rob a guilder caravan and nail a guilder at the same time! :p The changes you propose seem OK, but probably need playtesting. From my own limited experience I think the Heist scenario needs tweaking to make it less of a cash cow for House gangs, which can get a tonne of equipment and bypass the normal income reduction table.

    OCE Wyrd Telepath Mind Control Power - This is a bit of a Pandora's box. We've had a wyrd with that power play in or campaign for a number of months and it seems there is another rules query every other week. I'll invite @Matt Spencer to give a brief summary of all the houserules we've had to introduce to make it playable.
    Ben_S, Tiny and Stoof like this.
  13. Blood Donor

    Blood Donor Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian

    Flamer weapons; could there be a 6+, 4+, and 2+ linearity to how partial hits work? Have all fully covered targets auto hit as per normal, but then Hand Flamer partially covered targets hit on a 6+, Flamer partially covered targets hit on a 4+, and Heavy Flamer partially covered targets hit on a 2+. The 2+/4+/6+ version of the 3+/4+/5+ idea would merely embellish the effective area of the template, but I think those numbers would be more accurate in theoretically bending the size of the template to reflect the size differences of each Flamer weapon. I also picture the wieldly nature of a flame spout being easier to avoid at closer distances justifying of only partial coverage at the narrow end of the template, and it also poses some tactical thought on using them rather than moving up to like 1" away from a target and trying to get the ones behind them as well.

    For the hiding wording, what if in the movement section - where there is the little box that has 1 Chargers:... 2: Compulsory Moves:... 3: Rest:... - in the part that is "3: Rest" where there is ample room, what if it were written something like "Once you have moved chargers and compulsory movers you can move the rest of your models as you wish. You may place models into hiding at this point as well, but doing so will make them no longer eligible to shoot during the shooting phase." Or some such wording, but by stating it at this point it would solve the order of operations debacle of placing characters into hiding once their intended target was no longer an option.

    Could Deflect force a reroll to Wound rather than to hit so as to make it different but still a good skillset?

    ...Awesome to see this thread, huge props to you @Tiny for taking reins on this (y):notworthy:
    DarkNwss, spafe, undertaker and 2 others like this.
  14. Jlove

    Jlove Ganger

    Agree with you @Tiny in relation to caravan and the number of gangers available, should really be more of a pitched battle in my opinion.

    I played this against @Ned Noodle during the tribemeet in Peterborough last year which was the first time I'd even looked at the scenario since playing the original outlanders version. I think Ned only rolled something like 3 fighters which even if he managed to get them off the board, was unlikely to make off with any great rewards.

    I gather that the main issue with caravan wasn't so much the scenario itself, rather it just got abused for the 'high reward' element. The only high risk was due to the chances of being permanently outlawed and the higher casualty/bottle ratio. This isn't so much of a risk for outlander gangs.

    I think the high reward element really needs to stay and I like the rewards currently in NCE edition. Full gangs should be used with maybe another factor introduced to increase the risk for attackers; say an allowance to spend on wall guns, equipment etc for the defenders for this game only?

    What do you guys think?
    #14 Jlove, Mar 10, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    undertaker and Tiny like this.
  15. Ben_S

    Ben_S Hive Guilder
    Honored Tribesman

    I've said it before, but I don't like restricting hiding to full/50% cover. If you've already got -2 for enemies shooting at you, you're generally fairly safe already.

    The point of hiding (imho) is to represent the fact that the real-life fighters wouldn't be stuck in the dynamic poses that the models often are in, and would be able to fully conceal themselves behind a low wall or similar by crouching, etc.

    Perhaps, however, the hiding rules aren't the best way to represent this. Maybe a better fix would be to modify the cover rules - for instance saying that someone in base contact with a piece of scenery providing cover should always count as being in full cover from an enemy on the far side of it.

    That would be a change to the core rules, rather than a simple case of fixing ambiguity, but perhaps something like that would complement added restrictions on actually hiding, to prevent further domination of shooting.
    undertaker likes this.
  16. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    I would keep to the 5+, 4+, 3+ convention as it matches the Ammo roll and catch fire rolls. Just makes remembering everything a lot easier. I know it makes Hand Flamer slightly better and Heavy Flamer a little worse but to me ease of play is better than total realism. Don't forget the strengths of the weapons are also now different to differentiate them, which they weren't originally.

    Thanks man. Should be fun.

    Something I really, really don't want to do. I am in favour of keeping things as close to ORB as possible to retain the spirit of the original game, rather than re-writing things for the sake of realism.

    I don't mind fixing things that are broken or don't make sense but most of what we're doing should be clarification and re-wording as opposed to broad changes which can then cause knock-on effects which break other aspects of the game. IMO NCE has got a little out of hand in terms of "fixes" in the last few revisions and some things are a long way away from their original intent.

    Don't forget everyone: N17 is already a thing so all we're doing is polishing an already great work, not writing a new game.
    Benoksen and undertaker like this.
  17. Ben_S

    Ben_S Hive Guilder
    Honored Tribesman

    I totally get that. There are already additions to NCE that I'm not so sure about myself. But, on the other hand, remember that two counter-balancing changes can sometimes produce a result closer to the original than making just one change.
    undertaker and Tiny like this.
  18. Blood Donor

    Blood Donor Executive Officer in Charge of the 2014 Bake Sale
    Staff Member Necromunda Custodian

    It matches the Strength values as well, which does create a nice roundness to the whole thing. I rescind my previous point of view and agree that the 3+/4+/5+ Partial Cover spread for Flamer weapons is the way to go :p Also, and it might just be early onset senility, but I feel like I might have argued this same thing, was responded to with the counter logic, and then agreed with the same counter logic, the last time around when Flamer rules changed. Maybe. Not sure.
    undertaker and Tiny like this.
  19. undertaker

    undertaker Gang Champion

    The current wording in the NCE mostly prevents this sort of abuse of the hiding rules where models can hide behind a lamp post or similar:
    It does require some player consensus though and good sportsmanship. I certainly wouldn't want to play against someone that abuses every liberty in order to win.
    However, I do think something needs to be done to stop hiding being the default option for every fighter during their movement phase. Something to stop the monotony of [Move]-[Hide]-[Immediately come out of hiding to shoot]. Some penalty associated with hiding to make it a tactical decision, rather than the default.

    I would put my weight behind the following option that has been suggested:

    If going into hiding, a model cannot shoot that turn. This includes models that re-hide because they got spotted during their movement. If remaining hidden from a previous turn, the model can act normally.

    @Blood Donor This should probably be mentioned in the actual Hiding section as well. The Leaving The Table section can be moved to page 10 to make space if necessary, at the expense of the fluff text in the brown box.

    I am also amenable to being able to charge hidden fighters, as per the LRB. This will improve the chances of close combats actually happening, rather than degenerating into a game of hide & seek!
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  20. Tiny

    Tiny Hive Guilder
    Tribe Council

    Thanks all.

    Any objections on amending Flamer weapons to hit partials on a 5+ / 4+ / 3+ as opposed to auto miss / 4+ / auto hit? If nobody has reasonable objection in the next week, I will mark that off as done and we can concentrate on the next item.

    Also there seems to be some consensus on models which go into hiding not being able to shoot in the same turn but allowed to shoot in subsequent turns. Any objections on that one?
    Blood Donor likes this.
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