NCE Necromunda Community Edition

MusingWarboss

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Here's probably the least interesting grumble for the NCE at the moment. Page numbering.

It's at the point I think the numbers on the pages need stripping from the document. I'm just looking at the 2019 PDF which I downloaded to replace the previous PDF I had.

Here's an example:
Creating a Gang (a useful section) is listed as being on Page 74.
Page 74 is actually Page 58 of the PDF!
Also even though page 58 of the PDF has 74 written on it, the very next page (59 in the PDF) has 76 written on it! What happened to 75??

I guess these were the physical book pages and some have been stripped out over time but it really needs a minor adjustment for the books new electronic form. Creating a Gang is 74 according to the page but the previous page is 56. (57 & 58 PDF pages)

It's come to the point of; do you need to have a physical page number written on the pages anymore if this is intended to be an electronic PDF only?
If so - can we make the links clickable? Assuming they aren't already - they don't click on my system - so that means looking for something is weird when it gives me a reference page number which is completely wrong.

If you do want to make the pages have a physical number on them for those that print the document, can the pages reflect the actual number and location of pages in the PDF?

Page 4 (the Introduction) is 7 pages in on my PDF. The next is 5 then 8.

C'mon this is the NCE not N18!
 
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Tiny

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Page numbering.
Yep, I'll sort that. Bugs me too but forgot about it.

If anyone spots any page references in the text (i.e. "see page 74" as opposed to ones on the contents page) please post them here so I can change them as it'll save me time going through the whole document.

can we make the links clickable?
This is something that I buggered up in the 2019 version that I will (attempt to) fix in the next one. I'm a bit crap with PDFs and it seems using Acrobat as opposed to InDesign(?) has broken some stuff. I am sure I can fix it easily enough though.
 

Stoof

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The page numbering was retained when the art & fluff pages were stripped from the document for copyright/IP reasons. This means when you print the book, when the index says it's on page 74 you flip to the page that has a number 74 printed on it and bosh, there it is. That pages 12, 17, 45, 48 and 62* don't exist anymore is irrelevant.

Of course, that was when everyone needed to either print the PDF out or have a PC running beside the game table to look things up. With the advent of tablet computers and phones reading the PDF directly it doesn't really make sense to keep it that way (apart from some people knowing X is on page Y after so many years of playing).

(*numbers pulled from thin air for illustrative purposes).
 

MusingWarboss

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Well I didn’t know! :( I wanted to look something up, it said page 74 so I skimmed to page 74... of the PDF! As I imagine most people would.

Didn’t think it’d be 20-ish pages earlier.

Don’t think having arbitrary numbers on pages is much help you might as well just say skip to the Kangaroo and put a picture of one on the correct page. :unsure:;)

Better its either correctly numbered or we just skip them completely and go full electronic hyperclick madness!
 
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Stoof

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Do animals have a comparative value? If you skip to a page that says 63 and you want to go to 75 you know you need to go further. If you’re looking for kangaroo and land on Irish wolfhound do you go further or back :unsure:

Perhaps we could go with mass and start with tardigrade and end up on blue whale...
 

Ben_S

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It's always retained the original page numbers, which means all references to 'page 74' - including references from other sources - continue to be accurate.

While it might be that p. 74 isn't where you expect it to be in the PDF, it shouldn't be too hard to find. I think renumbering wouldjust create more confusion.

However, it it's possible to create a dual numbering system, e.g. see p. 74/58, that would be the best of both worlds.
 
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MusingWarboss

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It's always retained the original page numbers, which means all references to 'page 74' - including references from other sources - continue to be accurate.
While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
What do you call those? If you’re willing to shuffle up pages, later references may slip.

Or do you create Page 103a etc?

While it might be that p. 74 isn't where you expect it to be in the PDF, it shouldn't be too hard to find. I think renumbering wouldjust create more confusion.
It’s not really once you realise the page numbers of the PDF and the Document Pages are out of sync. You still have to randomly scroll until you find what you’re after though which wastes time.

It depends on how much you want the NCE to be bound to the LRBs conventions (and it’s papery brown predecessor considering you’ve stripped several pages out and moved the roster from 75 to 2 or 3).
There’s a fair bit been changed over the years ... at what point do you/we accept the NCE is now it’s own entity and can have its own internal logical numbering and not be bound by what was published almost two decades back.
Technically every modification ever made is ticking up the version number of this, so ancient references may be pointing to altered material anyway.

I’m not sure how it would create more confusion? Except maybe in people who have been accustomed to it being mislabelled. To me it just looks like it was forgotten or overlooked when initial restructuring was done and now we’re stuck with it because of... convention???

However, it it's possible to create a dual numbering system, e.g. see p. 74/58, that would be the best of both worlds.
No. Don’t do that. That seems like the opposite of clarity. It also looks like page 74 line 58.

I can understand @Tiny’s desire to keep edits to the NCE to the minimum though.
 
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Ben_S

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"While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
What do you call those? If you’re willing to shuffle up pages, later references may slip.

Or do you create Page 103a etc? "

Nope. As pointed out below, space has always been a constraint on NCE changes, so it's never been necessary for NCE to renumber anything.

(I thought there was an explanation of the pagination in the NCE document, though perhaps I'm thinking of the Blood Bowl LRB.)


"No. Don’t do that. That seems like the opposite of clarity. It also looks like page 74 line 58 "

It's pretty standard for referring to works that exist in multiple editions with different pagination. Ideally, with some label for clarity, like 'p. 74 print / 58 PDF' or whatever.

It would then allow anyone to use whichever version of page numbers were more convenient for them (so, wanting to follow that reference to p. 74, use the printed numbers; looking at the PDF, use those numbers).
 

Stoof

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While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
Interesting factoid! Pages don’t get added to NCE. They have been removed (fluff/art) and they have been rarely moved (rosters), but a constant objective was to keep the document concise and as close as possible to its origin - and this included a general rule that pages of new rules do not get added. If we couldn’t fit a clarified/fixed rule into the same space as the old one (with a little wiggle room) then the fixed rule is too wordy. I think this general ethos has helped NCE over the years, otherwise it might have just become be an untidy an excessively verbose clutter of house rules.

Also I agree, please don’t use 74/58 style dual numbering. Super confusing and I’d end up trying to work out what 74 58ths of the document means. I’d go whole hog and re-number, or leave it as it is... unfortunately renumbering does entail running through it and OCE as thoroughly as possible and making sure all the references to “page X” are still valid or we create the paper version of a 404 error o_O

Other sources that reference the books? Whatevs, they aren’t our remit. Someone wants to update them, on they may trot.
 

MusingWarboss

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"While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
What do you call those? If you’re willing to shuffle up pages, later references may slip.

Or do you create Page 103a etc? "

Nope. As pointed out below, space has always been a constraint on NCE changes, so it's never been necessary for NCE to renumber anything.

(I thought there was an explanation of the pagination in the NCE document, though perhaps I'm thinking of the Blood Bowl LRB.)
I’m glad the idea of being concise is there to avoid excess waffle. But I wonder if there was also a motive to do that because you’re editing a pre-existing PDF not mastering a new book, therefore can’t add formatted pages or move stuff around on the fly?

I get you’re all very passionate about it I didn’t realise the page numbers would be such a hornets nest!!

"No. Don’t do that. That seems like the opposite of clarity. It also looks like page 74 line 58 "

It's pretty standard for referring to works that exist in multiple editions with different pagination. Ideally, with some label for clarity, like 'p. 74 print / 58 PDF' or whatever.

It would then allow anyone to use whichever version of page numbers were more convenient for them (so, wanting to follow that reference to p. 74, use the printed numbers; looking at the PDF, use those numbers).
Multiple editions. Not multiple pages in the same book.

This isn’t an academic paper it’s a fan-mod/rework of a previous book.
However in the spirit of the NCE how about the PDF page numbers are in burgundy text. To indicate they’ve been modified from the original?
 
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Kogle

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In the Van Saar weapon list, sword is leader only, but chainsword is a hand-to-hand weapon. Seems odd that normal gangers can get chainswords, but not swords. Page 79.
 

Blood Donor

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Van Saar are technofiles though so maybe it were designed to represent their ability to obtain more tech stuff rather than a crafted weapon? Im not too invested in the logic as any scrap metal with a sharpened edge swashbuckled around the place could constitute a sword, but I think it was an attempt to give them a more tech-focused identity right from gang creation.
 
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undertaker

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Sadly, the house weapon lists are "thematic" but not very balanced. The chances of getting a consensus among the Tribe to change the NCE and make them more balanced is slim. It would be easier to just agree some house rules among your gaming group if you want to change the HWL. Whatever you decide, there will no doubt be some interested individuals here that may want to do the same, so please share your thoughts and playtest experience. You could even go the whole distance and rework the HWL entirely and post it up in the Vault for all to use! :)
 
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Ben_S

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However in the spirit of the NCE how about the PDF page numbers are in burgundy text. To indicate they’ve been modified from the original?
That wouldn't make any real difference, if the original is removed.

I see the value in adding something (page numbers corresponding to the PDF) that some players may find handy, but I'm wary of removing something (page numbers that stick to the original) that some players may also find useful.

That said, I think I've seen PDFs that are more intelligent about page numbering - for instance, books with introductory pages i-vi or whatever (Roman numerals) then 'real' pages starting from 1, but where the PDF has the same numbering, so 2 would take you to p. 2, not p. ii.

I'm not even sure I've explained that clearly, or whether it is possible, and I certainly haven't the foggiest how to do it. But, if this were doable, would that address everyone's issues? Selecting p. 74 would take you to the one with p. 74 on, even if it's actually only 58th in the file.
 

MusingWarboss

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I think the reason that I encountered this was that the initial links weren’t clickable. It’s the electronic age after all!

So failing that I defaulted to just going to the page listed - of course I expected the page numbers to corroborate!

I’ll leave it to Tiny to decide what to do.
 
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MusingWarboss

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I can't reply direct @Ben_S so it'll have to be here: I meant the Table of Contents page. I can't remember if it was clickable before or not, in fact I had to download this version because my last one was out of date.

At some point in the NCE evolution the TOC has been condensed down, I noticed looking at the LRB I have that it used to be much more itemised but now just points to the master section rather than individual rules under each section too.
 

Fold

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Ben, what is the use case you’re imagining where some players will find it useful to have original numbering?

I admit beyond some occasional references from other documents, I am struggling! And that seems quite a corner case.

Though saying that, if the contents (and any references throughout the document) are made clickable then probably most issues are resolved without needing to renumber.
 
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Blood Donor

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...if the contents (and any references throughout the document) are made clickable then probably most issues are resolved without needing to renumber.
But it cant be counted on that nobody will print it, so if they are renumbered hyperlinks then it would make everybody's day better. There is always the LRB that can be downloaded if players need to lust over the original page numbering.

IF the pages are hyperlinked, what about a table of contents page at the beginning?
 

MusingWarboss

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Yep, I'll sort that. Bugs me too but forgot about it.

If anyone spots any page references in the text (i.e. "see page 74" as opposed to ones on the contents page) please post them here so I can change them as it'll save me time going through the whole document.
Well, as I'm probably being cursed for mentioning the numbering I may as well go all out!

Using a recursive search for "Page" these are the references to page numbers I can find in-document.

‘Playing a Campaign Game’ section (see page 109)
- gets referred to twice on PDF pg 33

To start the campaign two players simply take their
gangs and select one of the scenarios to fight (see
page 109)
- PDF pg 63

The Playing a Campaign Game section (page 109)
includes full details of the Experience points that can
be earned for each scenario.
- PDF pg 66

As fighters earn more Experience points they are
entitled to make Advance rolls. The table on page 86
shows how many Experience points a fighter must
earn before he can make a further roll.
- PDF pg 66

These restriction are indicated on the Skill
tables on page 88.
- PDF pg 68

Every gang begins with five territories generated from
the Territory table (see page 94). Some scenarios
allow gangs to gain extra territory or lose it to their
rivals (see page 109). The more and better territory a
gang has the richer it will become.

To generate a random territory from the Territory
table on pages 94-95, roll two dice.
- triple mention on PDF pg 73

6: One in a Million Weapon (see page 54)
- PDF pg 78

If the Hired Gun is killed or was forced to miss the
game (as described in the Missing Games section on
page 83) then understandably he does not have to be
paid for his services that game.
- PDF pg 81

That's all I can find using that method.