NCE Necromunda Community Edition

MusingWarboss

Gang Hero
Oct 31, 2013
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Here's probably the least interesting grumble for the NCE at the moment. Page numbering.

It's at the point I think the numbers on the pages need stripping from the document. I'm just looking at the 2019 PDF which I downloaded to replace the previous PDF I had.

Here's an example:
Creating a Gang (a useful section) is listed as being on Page 74.
Page 74 is actually Page 58 of the PDF!
Also even though page 58 of the PDF has 74 written on it, the very next page (59 in the PDF) has 76 written on it! What happened to 75??

I guess these were the physical book pages and some have been stripped out over time but it really needs a minor adjustment for the books new electronic form. Creating a Gang is 74 according to the page but the previous page is 56. (57 & 58 PDF pages)

It's come to the point of; do you need to have a physical page number written on the pages anymore if this is intended to be an electronic PDF only?
If so - can we make the links clickable? Assuming they aren't already - they don't click on my system - so that means looking for something is weird when it gives me a reference page number which is completely wrong.

If you do want to make the pages have a physical number on them for those that print the document, can the pages reflect the actual number and location of pages in the PDF?

Page 4 (the Introduction) is 7 pages in on my PDF. The next is 5 then 8.

C'mon this is the NCE not N18!
 
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Tiny

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Jul 12, 2011
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Page numbering.
Yep, I'll sort that. Bugs me too but forgot about it.

If anyone spots any page references in the text (i.e. "see page 74" as opposed to ones on the contents page) please post them here so I can change them as it'll save me time going through the whole document.

can we make the links clickable?
This is something that I buggered up in the 2019 version that I will (attempt to) fix in the next one. I'm a bit crap with PDFs and it seems using Acrobat as opposed to InDesign(?) has broken some stuff. I am sure I can fix it easily enough though.
 

Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
Yak Comp 2nd Place
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The page numbering was retained when the art & fluff pages were stripped from the document for copyright/IP reasons. This means when you print the book, when the index says it's on page 74 you flip to the page that has a number 74 printed on it and bosh, there it is. That pages 12, 17, 45, 48 and 62* don't exist anymore is irrelevant.

Of course, that was when everyone needed to either print the PDF out or have a PC running beside the game table to look things up. With the advent of tablet computers and phones reading the PDF directly it doesn't really make sense to keep it that way (apart from some people knowing X is on page Y after so many years of playing).

(*numbers pulled from thin air for illustrative purposes).
 

MusingWarboss

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Oct 31, 2013
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Well I didn’t know! :( I wanted to look something up, it said page 74 so I skimmed to page 74... of the PDF! As I imagine most people would.

Didn’t think it’d be 20-ish pages earlier.

Don’t think having arbitrary numbers on pages is much help you might as well just say skip to the Kangaroo and put a picture of one on the correct page. :unsure:;)

Better its either correctly numbered or we just skip them completely and go full electronic hyperclick madness!
 

Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
Yak Comp 2nd Place
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Jun 1, 2016
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Do animals have a comparative value? If you skip to a page that says 63 and you want to go to 75 you know you need to go further. If you’re looking for kangaroo and land on Irish wolfhound do you go further or back :unsure:

Perhaps we could go with mass and start with tardigrade and end up on blue whale...
 

Ben_S

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Honored Tribesman
Jul 26, 2015
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It's always retained the original page numbers, which means all references to 'page 74' - including references from other sources - continue to be accurate.

While it might be that p. 74 isn't where you expect it to be in the PDF, it shouldn't be too hard to find. I think renumbering wouldjust create more confusion.

However, it it's possible to create a dual numbering system, e.g. see p. 74/58, that would be the best of both worlds.
 
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MusingWarboss

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It's always retained the original page numbers, which means all references to 'page 74' - including references from other sources - continue to be accurate.
While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
What do you call those? If you’re willing to shuffle up pages, later references may slip.

Or do you create Page 103a etc?

While it might be that p. 74 isn't where you expect it to be in the PDF, it shouldn't be too hard to find. I think renumbering wouldjust create more confusion.
It’s not really once you realise the page numbers of the PDF and the Document Pages are out of sync. You still have to randomly scroll until you find what you’re after though which wastes time.

It depends on how much you want the NCE to be bound to the LRBs conventions (and it’s papery brown predecessor considering you’ve stripped several pages out and moved the roster from 75 to 2 or 3).
There’s a fair bit been changed over the years ... at what point do you/we accept the NCE is now it’s own entity and can have its own internal logical numbering and not be bound by what was published almost two decades back.
Technically every modification ever made is ticking up the version number of this, so ancient references may be pointing to altered material anyway.

I’m not sure how it would create more confusion? Except maybe in people who have been accustomed to it being mislabelled. To me it just looks like it was forgotten or overlooked when initial restructuring was done and now we’re stuck with it because of... convention???

However, it it's possible to create a dual numbering system, e.g. see p. 74/58, that would be the best of both worlds.
No. Don’t do that. That seems like the opposite of clarity. It also looks like page 74 line 58.

I can understand @Tiny’s desire to keep edits to the NCE to the minimum though.
 
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Stoof

Yakmarines 2nd Co. Word Priest
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Jun 1, 2016
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While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
Interesting factoid! Pages don’t get added to NCE. They have been removed (fluff/art) and they have been rarely moved (rosters), but a constant objective was to keep the document concise and as close as possible to its origin - and this included a general rule that pages of new rules do not get added. If we couldn’t fit a clarified/fixed rule into the same space as the old one (with a little wiggle room) then the fixed rule is too wordy. I think this general ethos has helped NCE over the years, otherwise it might have just become be an untidy an excessively verbose clutter of house rules.

Also I agree, please don’t use 74/58 style dual numbering. Super confusing and I’d end up trying to work out what 74 58ths of the document means. I’d go whole hog and re-number, or leave it as it is... unfortunately renumbering does entail running through it and OCE as thoroughly as possible and making sure all the references to “page X” are still valid or we create the paper version of a 404 error o_O

Other sources that reference the books? Whatevs, they aren’t our remit. Someone wants to update them, on they may trot.
 

Ben_S

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Jul 26, 2015
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"While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
What do you call those? If you’re willing to shuffle up pages, later references may slip.

Or do you create Page 103a etc? "

Nope. As pointed out below, space has always been a constraint on NCE changes, so it's never been necessary for NCE to renumber anything.

(I thought there was an explanation of the pagination in the NCE document, though perhaps I'm thinking of the Blood Bowl LRB.)


"No. Don’t do that. That seems like the opposite of clarity. It also looks like page 74 line 58 "

It's pretty standard for referring to works that exist in multiple editions with different pagination. Ideally, with some label for clarity, like 'p. 74 print / 58 PDF' or whatever.

It would then allow anyone to use whichever version of page numbers were more convenient for them (so, wanting to follow that reference to p. 74, use the printed numbers; looking at the PDF, use those numbers).
 

MusingWarboss

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Oct 31, 2013
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"While I get the logic of that there will come a point where restructuring an old document breaks the formatting and extra pages are added.
What do you call those? If you’re willing to shuffle up pages, later references may slip.

Or do you create Page 103a etc? "

Nope. As pointed out below, space has always been a constraint on NCE changes, so it's never been necessary for NCE to renumber anything.

(I thought there was an explanation of the pagination in the NCE document, though perhaps I'm thinking of the Blood Bowl LRB.)
I’m glad the idea of being concise is there to avoid excess waffle. But I wonder if there was also a motive to do that because you’re editing a pre-existing PDF not mastering a new book, therefore can’t add formatted pages or move stuff around on the fly?

I get you’re all very passionate about it I didn’t realise the page numbers would be such a hornets nest!!

"No. Don’t do that. That seems like the opposite of clarity. It also looks like page 74 line 58 "

It's pretty standard for referring to works that exist in multiple editions with different pagination. Ideally, with some label for clarity, like 'p. 74 print / 58 PDF' or whatever.

It would then allow anyone to use whichever version of page numbers were more convenient for them (so, wanting to follow that reference to p. 74, use the printed numbers; looking at the PDF, use those numbers).
Multiple editions. Not multiple pages in the same book.

This isn’t an academic paper it’s a fan-mod/rework of a previous book.
However in the spirit of the NCE how about the PDF page numbers are in burgundy text. To indicate they’ve been modified from the original?
 
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Kogle

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Sep 20, 2019
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In the Van Saar weapon list, sword is leader only, but chainsword is a hand-to-hand weapon. Seems odd that normal gangers can get chainswords, but not swords. Page 79.