They're certainly very different, to me they scratch a completely different itch (well n18 doesn't really scratch anything for me, but plenty of people seem to like what it's doing (although secretly I think they're just missing out and they'd still like n95 more)). Modern GW seem to have a huge boner for deterministic point-buy systems, whereas older games throw a lot more randomness at you. One has you follow a 'build', the other has you make emergent decisions on the fly – and then they add an *option* for randomness, in case you want it, but that option is more of a sideshow and a suboptimal fake choice (Blood Bowl please revert to the 2D6 advance system). Up to the players what they like, but when people sell Newcromunda on its epic campaign development I do feel like they're not really getting the best version of what they're looking for.
NCE Necromunda Community Edition
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You touch valid points. I wonder if it's not because the target market has less time to play now, but loves to spend time making potential builds, with non-random advances allowing to plan a path. New players might be adverse to not being able to control how things evolve, and the new systems cater to that.
Personally, the random advances create a story closer to life, and makes for amazingly rare stuff actually occur out of nowhere. Your parallel with Bloodbowl is accurate i think. But yes, sometimes odds do not favor us, and we have to bite a bullet.
One big issue i find with the new version is the burden dropped on the shoulders of the arbitrator. The quantity of rules to know and amount of "agreements" required to work out the balance of it is astounding. I had gathered -everything- the new game produced up until 2021, from cards to forgeworld kits...and by the time i was ready to start the campaigns, i gave up and sold everything. In comparison, back when I ran campaigns fo the ORB, i had time to run a gang of my own at the same time without a fuss -and- play Mordheim and Blood Bowl too. We had a few house rules, but the new NCE ironed out most of the kinks. I really wish it was more known. I'd encourage players to buy the new models, and hell, buy the new books if they want the lore and artwork for inspiration, but by all means...use the NCE to play it!
Lastly, i've always seen Necromunda like a Mad Max 2 skirmish game, not Tier 1 DEVGRU operators hitting the slums. BS 2+ gangers should not be normal for anyone, it should be feared and coveted when it occurs. I like the fact that success is hard to get, and that each ganger can evolve into their own thing, rather than on guided-rails to army-standard optimal effectiveness.
Personally, the random advances create a story closer to life, and makes for amazingly rare stuff actually occur out of nowhere. Your parallel with Bloodbowl is accurate i think. But yes, sometimes odds do not favor us, and we have to bite a bullet.
One big issue i find with the new version is the burden dropped on the shoulders of the arbitrator. The quantity of rules to know and amount of "agreements" required to work out the balance of it is astounding. I had gathered -everything- the new game produced up until 2021, from cards to forgeworld kits...and by the time i was ready to start the campaigns, i gave up and sold everything. In comparison, back when I ran campaigns fo the ORB, i had time to run a gang of my own at the same time without a fuss -and- play Mordheim and Blood Bowl too. We had a few house rules, but the new NCE ironed out most of the kinks. I really wish it was more known. I'd encourage players to buy the new models, and hell, buy the new books if they want the lore and artwork for inspiration, but by all means...use the NCE to play it!
Lastly, i've always seen Necromunda like a Mad Max 2 skirmish game, not Tier 1 DEVGRU operators hitting the slums. BS 2+ gangers should not be normal for anyone, it should be feared and coveted when it occurs. I like the fact that success is hard to get, and that each ganger can evolve into their own thing, rather than on guided-rails to army-standard optimal effectiveness.
I haven't tried it, but others have. It's had quite a bit of discussion:
NCE - Alternating activation for Necromunda Community Edition
At least until Games Workshop finish releasing all the auxiliary rule supplements for N17, in our SOGG campaign we’re experimenting with porting a simple version of the alternating activation rules into our beloved NCE. To that end this thread will compile our attempts. So far our experience...
yaktribe.games
I don't think anything on This Reference Sheet has changed since it was updated last - it covers all the basics and references the pages in NCE for more detail.
I have a question for any NCE fans: when does your group make you pay for (existing) hired guns?
The NCE just says:
However, "after each battle" is a nebulous time: it could be right after you get your income, or it could be any time during the Trading Post session.
The spirit of the rules seem to be about making you pay for hired guns if you can, so it seems like you should be required to pay for your hired guns as soon as you get your income. Similarly, having to pay for a Hired Gun "twice" (once before the fight, and once after, even if you then decide to let them go) seems like a key part of the game balance of Hired Guns, and it incentivizes you to keep Hired Guns when you otherwise wouldn't (so you don't have to pay double again).
However, since the rules never specify when, one could interpret that you're allowed to spend income first. If you then don't have enough to pay your hired gun(s), you don't have to, and can just let them go (only paying for them once). This would mean anyone could hire all the guns they want (eg. to jack up their gang rating), then spend enough credits before paying them so they never have to pay them post-battle. This interpretation would incentivize you constantly get new Hired Guns, at least until you roll a really good one.
I'd welcome any thoughts (including "you're a dummy, this is actually answered on page ____"
)
The NCE just says:
However, "after each battle" is a nebulous time: it could be right after you get your income, or it could be any time during the Trading Post session.
The spirit of the rules seem to be about making you pay for hired guns if you can, so it seems like you should be required to pay for your hired guns as soon as you get your income. Similarly, having to pay for a Hired Gun "twice" (once before the fight, and once after, even if you then decide to let them go) seems like a key part of the game balance of Hired Guns, and it incentivizes you to keep Hired Guns when you otherwise wouldn't (so you don't have to pay double again).
However, since the rules never specify when, one could interpret that you're allowed to spend income first. If you then don't have enough to pay your hired gun(s), you don't have to, and can just let them go (only paying for them once). This would mean anyone could hire all the guns they want (eg. to jack up their gang rating), then spend enough credits before paying them so they never have to pay them post-battle. This interpretation would incentivize you constantly get new Hired Guns, at least until you roll a really good one.
I'd welcome any thoughts (including "you're a dummy, this is actually answered on page ____"
)
I don't think it's ever been specified exactly - just after the game if you're intending to keep them on. This could be before or after you've done everything else. If that means you let them go then so be it.
The key part is you can't hire another if you don't pay until another game has passed.
So if you do the hire-loads-and-don't-pay method your gang rating will yoyo and you'll waste money you could be spending on your actual fighters on guys who don't advance and won't be there next game. You also won't be saving any money to hire that new heavy or buy the newly promoted specialist a plasma gun if you're purposely spending everything post battle to avoid paying hired guns.
And I don't think I've ever been so awash with credits to make this worth it.
(You'll also spend a frankly boring amount of time rolling hired guns up post battle)
If you have a campaign arbitrator they might have some fun with it - repeatedly fail to pay hire guns post battle and only Scum will fight for you, if you keep doing it then your bad credit rating might mean no hired guns will fight for you at all.
The key part is you can't hire another if you don't pay until another game has passed.
So if you do the hire-loads-and-don't-pay method your gang rating will yoyo and you'll waste money you could be spending on your actual fighters on guys who don't advance and won't be there next game. You also won't be saving any money to hire that new heavy or buy the newly promoted specialist a plasma gun if you're purposely spending everything post battle to avoid paying hired guns.
And I don't think I've ever been so awash with credits to make this worth it.
(You'll also spend a frankly boring amount of time rolling hired guns up post battle)
If you have a campaign arbitrator they might have some fun with it - repeatedly fail to pay hire guns post battle and only Scum will fight for you, if you keep doing it then your bad credit rating might mean no hired guns will fight for you at all.
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On the yo-yo thing, in this particular case we have a campaign event, where the gang with the highest increase at the end of the event gets a new territory
Based on your interpretation, it sounds like we can all hire Hired Guns, paying only their initial fee, and then (post-event) use up our credits such that we don't have to pay our HGs a second time ... and all this works despite the rule about "must pay the hire fee for the Hired Gun when he is recruited and subsequently after each battle including the first"?
An arbitrator with their wits about them will specify that the rating for such doesn't include hired guns.
If they don't then game the system if you like I suppose
can't comment on the running of other people's campaigns.
If they don't then game the system if you like I suppose
can't comment on the running of other people's campaigns.Sure sure, just interested in your (and anyone else's) thoughts. Appreciate you taking the time!
I always just played that you pay a hiring fee for the next game, never saw the point of charging double with fuzzy rules on how you actually pay after the fact. I never saw them as long-term members, just a boost for a game or two.
Anyway, if you want to keep the 'pay double for the first game' system, why not just take the Mordheim route. Pay a hiring fee before the first game, and then a retainer fee before subsequent games. No need to split the cost of the first game and then make rules about paying for each game after the fact. And why wouldn't they demand cash up front?
Anyway, if you want to keep the 'pay double for the first game' system, why not just take the Mordheim route. Pay a hiring fee before the first game, and then a retainer fee before subsequent games. No need to split the cost of the first game and then make rules about paying for each game after the fact. And why wouldn't they demand cash up front?
We never saw it as “paying double”, just a slightly awkward way of saying you pay in advance before each game. So the second fee on the first game is actually covering the second.
You were free to not pay them after any given game, the consequences of which being you’d simply not have them next game. This wasn’t viewed as underhand or anything.
You were free to not pay them after any given game, the consequences of which being you’d simply not have them next game. This wasn’t viewed as underhand or anything.
Yeah, there's no commitment to paying hired guns after a game. You don't have to keep them on if you don't want to.
If running the aforementioned campaign however, I would just say that hired guns don't count towards the total for the free territory.
If running the aforementioned campaign however, I would just say that hired guns don't count towards the total for the free territory.
Gang rating is calculated for the next gang fight at the end of each post battle sequence, if you don’t pay them they don’t go on the Rosta and aren’t included. What you are suggesting is not completing the post battle sequence for an advantage?
If you have gangers out of action how about not rolling on the serious injury chart to find out what happens? One could die but you’d be sharing your gang rating with them all included? same thing.
If you have gangers out of action how about not rolling on the serious injury chart to find out what happens? One could die but you’d be sharing your gang rating with them all included? same thing.
Ok, so it sounds like a clear consensus here. The one thing I'm curious about is this sentiment:
How do you reconcile that with the rules saying:
That wording seems to clearly say that you have to pay them before the first battle you use them in (ie. after the previous battle) and then you have to pay them after each battle. And the only exception to that seems to be if you run out of funds ... or am I missing something?
How do you reconcile that with the rules saying:
That wording seems to clearly say that you have to pay them before the first battle you use them in (ie. after the previous battle) and then you have to pay them after each battle. And the only exception to that seems to be if you run out of funds ... or am I missing something?
I read it that it should continue.
I have no idea if that was the intention behind them but I've played it that way for the last 30 years.
If your group want to play it the other way, then I'd say the first thing you have to spend your credits on is your hired gun's salary. Then you decide if he will fight in the next game or leave the gang, before totalling up gang rating.
It seems on further inspection that the NCE rules have previously been amended to feel like the latter should be the way to go... I think that is probably worth clarifying for the next iteration of the rules as it seems everyone is playing it wrong by the letter of the rules.
I have no idea if that was the intention behind them but I've played it that way for the last 30 years.
If your group want to play it the other way, then I'd say the first thing you have to spend your credits on is your hired gun's salary. Then you decide if he will fight in the next game or leave the gang, before totalling up gang rating.
It seems on further inspection that the NCE rules have previously been amended to feel like the latter should be the way to go... I think that is probably worth clarifying for the next iteration of the rules as it seems everyone is playing it wrong by the letter of the rules.
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Yeah the payment after the first fight is to get them for the next one, so you're always paying in advance. If at the end of a fight you no longer want them around then you don't pay and remove them from the gang roster.
Right, and this makes sense and goes with what everyone is saying, except ...do you just ignore (emphasis added):
BTW, I checked the original rulebook, and it has that same exact line on pg. 60 of the Sourcebook, so this isn't an NCE thing.
Now, I should note both editions also do say:
But that doesn't say you can ignore the first sentence, so I'm really struggling to see how anyone justifies just ignoring the rules, when they clearly say you have to pay for the hired gun after the battle? Is everyone just "house ruling" to ignore that sentence?
At the very least, it seems like the NCE could use a sentence clarifying all this (since the goal of the NCE seems to be to bring clarity to the old rules).
BTW, I checked the original rulebook, and it has that same exact line on pg. 60 of the Sourcebook, so this isn't an NCE thing.
Now, I should note both editions also do say:
But that doesn't say you can ignore the first sentence, so I'm really struggling to see how anyone justifies just ignoring the rules, when they clearly say you have to pay for the hired gun after the battle? Is everyone just "house ruling" to ignore that sentence?
At the very least, it seems like the NCE could use a sentence clarifying all this (since the goal of the NCE seems to be to bring clarity to the old rules).
The method by which you dispense of their services is by not paying them is how I'd view it. As this was the era when they would actually publish rules clarifications when people asked, there might be an official response floating around somewhere but I always think it's best to allow common sense to win out over trusting the editing department at GW. Not a bad shout for a NCE edit though.
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