N18 Need help countering tactics

Hello,

we are playing a dominion campaign. We are still in the occupation phase but there is one guy that has won all games and he uses every trick in the book. No one has come near beating him. He plays a venator gang that choosed to count as delaque. He bought all the tactic card sets and he uses the most offective ones. We play both on sector mechanicus and zone mortalis.

In one of his first games he got the territory "needle ways".

So when we play a scenario where he can choose his tactic cards he already has the upper hand.
He likes to choose "history of violence". So he hinders one of your most important fighters of his choosing like the leader to miss the scenario. Annoying. Is there any way to counter a card like that?

But the most gamebreaking tactic I encountered is that: In zone mortalis scenarios he uses needle ways to place his leader and some other of his fighters near my biggest group or my most important fighters at the end of round 1. At the beginning of round 2 he plays the tactic card "seize the initiative". So he gets the initiative...he first activation is a group activation with he leader. So 3 or more(with commanding presence) of his guys can act before I have a chance to do anything. At least one of his guys has a web gun. He tries to hit as much guys as possible with the template. He just has to wound with S5. It ignores any armor and the victim is automaticly seriously injured. Then the next activations are just charges with the other guys and coups de graces my seriously injured guys. Last game I lost my leader and a heavy weapon guy with this. After that he used on his important guys stimm slug stash so that he survived any counterfire I could muster.
I have no idea how to counter this. I don't find it fun to play against such things, because there is not much to do. The only thing to do is to pray that the wound roll for the web gun is bad. Are there any tactic cards that helps against such tactics.
The problem was too that he had 2 grenade launcher guys that pinned my guys so that I could not move around a lot in my first round.​
 

enyoss

Gang Hero
Tribe Council
Jul 19, 2015
1,115
1,690
163
SL
Hello,

we are playing a dominion campaign. We are still in the occupation phase but there is one guy that has won all games and he uses every trick in the book. No one has come near beating him. He plays a venator gang that choosed to count as delaque. He bought all the tactic card sets and he uses the most offective ones. We play both on sector mechanicus and zone mortalis.

In one of his first games he got the territory "needle ways".

So when we play a scenario where he can choose his tactic cards he already has the upper hand.
He likes to choose "history of violence". So he hinders one of your most important fighters of his choosing like the leader to miss the scenario. Annoying. Is there any way to counter a card like that?

But the most gamebreaking tactic I encountered is that: In zone mortalis scenarios he uses needle ways to place his leader and some other of his fighters near my biggest group or my most important fighters at the end of round 1. At the beginning of round 2 he plays the tactic card "seize the initiative". So he gets the initiative...he first activation is a group activation with he leader. So 3 or more(with commanding presence) of his guys can act before I have a chance to do anything. At least one of his guys has a web gun. He tries to hit as much guys as possible with the template. He just has to wound with S5. It ignores any armor and the victim is automaticly seriously injured. Then the next activations are just charges with the other guys and coups de graces my seriously injured guys. Last game I lost my leader and a heavy weapon guy with this. After that he used on his important guys stimm slug stash so that he survived any counterfire I could muster.
I have no idea how to counter this. I don't find it fun to play against such things, because there is not much to do. The only thing to do is to pray that the wound roll for the web gun is bad. Are there any tactic cards that helps against such tactics.
The problem was too that he had 2 grenade launcher guys that pinned my guys so that I could not move around a lot in my first round.​
First counter: history of violence. Card is picked in the ‘select tactics card’ section, which happens after the choose crews section it affects. So RAW it’s useless.

See how fun he finds that. After he’s picked it. :D

I sometimes wonder if these gamey yet RAW useless cards are sprinkled into the sets to weed out the trolls so they can counter-trolled more effectively. Then I remember GW.

Edit: can you also take seize the initiative? At least the second turn then become a straight roll off, and half the time he’ll lose the needle ways guys. Should force him to be more careful. Although it leads to a boring stalemate with the tactics cards game, it should probably leave you with the purest actual proper gaming experience.
 

Nucit

Ganger
Dec 18, 2017
95
197
33
Berlin
There is a very simple solution to this: Don't play with him.
Realy, Necromunda balance wise, even after the new update, is just rubbish. So it all comes down to play in a way your gang is not killing all the fun for others. If he can't get that, he's not worth any of your time. Tell him there are other systems meant for such min/max playing, Necromunda ist just not that kind of a game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Merzbau and Konn75

TabulaRasa

Gang Champion
Jul 26, 2018
422
337
63
Stockholm
What gang are you playing?

I don’t have the rules with me, but surely there’s some restrictions as to how he are allowed to set up his fighters via needle ways? If so, try to screen him so that he can only target one ganger with the web gun. There’s probably other ways as well. Especially if you’re playing cawdor. Then depending on how you force him to deploy you can use the tactic card which potentially puts a blaze marker on every fighter on that tile. Also bomb rats is something that will potentially give him a headache since any already deployed gets to move first. Also remember that the new rules for GR and extra tactic cards is dependent on what you actually put on the table - not your whole gang. So this should allow you extra cards if he bumps away your leader with a history of violence. Also you could yourself go for with other tactic cards like unsure footing, or the one that basically lets you do an overwatch attack to mess up his attack. So unless you’re planning on house rules I’d suggest getting a hand of the other tactic cards yourself.

The tricky thing with balance in this game is that in some cases it might be down to a couple of players making lists to be able to beat each other and end up with creating a boring game. For instance in the last campaign I picked up a Goliath leader with heavy bolter to try to counter the static (and imo boring) gun line of my friends Van Saars. It just made the campaign a bit more boring. I’d rather solve it with a limit on heavy/special weapons and things that gives rewards for coo rather than good fighters etc.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
2,835
6,171
138
34
Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
There is a very simple solution to this: Don't play with him.
But that's not really a solution, is it?
They are already playing a Dominon campaign with that player. Not playing that player means either dropping out of the campaign (and it may be the only one available) or staying and never challenging him/always declining his challenges, which means he will never be the defender in any scenario (where he would be at a significant disadvantage most of the time) and will gain/steal territories for free.
The arbitrator may be able to do something though. They may have a talk with that player, or outright ban/nerf some of the tactics they are using (Needle ways could use some limitation for instance, 6" away from any enemy fighter or out of LoS like Infiltrate would be a start). Or they may come up with something more creative that would provide him with more of a challenge (2v1 scenarios for instance, or an arbitrator-controlled venator gang to keep him in check).
Note that I'm assuming that there is no real attitude problem with that player (otherwise the arbitrator should simply take disciplinary measures, up to and including kicking them out of the campaign). A player should not be unfairly penalized simply for cleverly using the tools at their disposal.

But there are also things you can do. Challenge him before he can challenge you (with Needle ways at stake if possible) and, whenever you can, choose a scenario that take away his toys. If he is the defender in a scenario with the Sneak attack rules, he can't infiltrate and can't use any tactics card before the alarm is raised. Have other players do the same. He likes Web weapons? Then you should love Web solvent. Maybe purchase some booby traps to create a safe space where his guys won't be able to infiltrate without risk. If you play Cawdor, the Effigy of the damned tactics card can be a good counter to Seize the initiative. Last Gasp can also let the first guy he kills throw a grenade at the group and pin everyone (and hopefully take a few OoA), making him waste his alpha strike (won't work against Web though).
 

Norngahl

Ganger
May 7, 2018
50
42
18
Essen, Deutschland
First thing, don't play with the cards. Second thing, if you really want such an unbalanced element, draw randomly from a staple of all cards, not just a chosen staple.

Third, talk to the others, gang up in a miltiplayer and beat the hell out of him. When he has only half of his gang available, convince another Player (or do it yourself) to chop up the surviving half. If you do it over and over again he will propably end up with a Lot of injuries, losses and often has to fight at half strength.

If someone tries to ruin your necromunda game, educate him and teach him it can be the other way round as well. And tell him explicit that you hate that he only pulls the same dumb tactic over and over again.

A different thing ist castle up in a corner. Put your expendable gangers on the outside as speedbumps. If he still decides to set up close, he can get your expendable stuff at best, leaving himvulnerable to counter tactics.

A good combo on top of this is leader with overseer and a guy with grenades, prefarably destruction loads ( are they called lile that in english, the D3 grenades) or otherwise blasting charges. He has to set up tight for group activation. Use overseer for double run on your ganger straight out of the corner, than die bis activation actions to run and throw grenade. Hell it is a mean tactic and works best at Zone mortalis, but he has earned it all by himself.
 

SumpRat

Gang Champion
Apr 23, 2013
487
575
98
Man, I don’t think guy really gets Necromunda, does he?

We had a restriction on the cards, Max 20, no duplicates, only one can be picked, the rest are randomly drawn.

Other than that, I can’t really think of any solutions for this campaign, just go into the next one knowing which type of player they are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Valar

Jon Reinhardt

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Oct 19, 2016
112
212
88
Stavanger
Or even simpler get some smoke grenades. smoke your crew there is a 5+ chance it will stay there in the beginning of the next round. And then you fighters can be targeted unless the enemy have infra sigh or photo googles. I play goliaths so i use a loot of smoke to get close. Its 15 c vs 35 for googles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alobar
Apr 4, 2018
139
102
43
Bristol, UK
Smoke won't help, neither templates nor charging need LoS.

I would honestly just same to them that you think his tactic is suckong the fun out of the game.
Yes it's effective, but Necromunda isn't about exploiting rules like that and you want him to stop because he isn't fun to fight.
He might not realise that it isn't fun for you. He might just the used to 40k/whatever where playing to peak performance is the norm.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alobar

Jon Reinhardt

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Oct 19, 2016
112
212
88
Stavanger
Smoke won't help, neither templates nor charging need LoS.

I would honestly just same to them that you think his tactic is suckong the fun out of the game.
Yes it's effective, but Necromunda isn't about exploiting rules like that and you want him to stop because he isn't fun to fight.
He might not realise that it isn't fun for you. He might just the used to 40k/whatever where playing to peak performance is the norm.
Don't thik it helps you can't be targeted In Smoke. Melee don't work inside the smoke cloud.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SumpRat

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
2,835
6,171
138
34
Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
I don't think Smoke is the answer.
Whether or not it precludes close combat attack is debatable (as written, they require FoV but not LoS, even when you attack from range with Versatile), however, it does nothing against Template weapons (which all ranged Web weapons are).
Also, since the OP scenario has the Delaque player activating 3+ fighters as the first activation on turn 2, you really need that smoke cloud to persist, which only happens 1/3 of the time.
Finally, Delaque have access to common and discounted (-43%) photo goggles thanks to their HWL. Even if they don't use Template weapons, 120 credits is all they need to make every fighter in both infiltrating teams smoke-proof. (Completely forgot it was not real Delaque but Venators counting as Delaque)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Alobar
Apr 4, 2018
139
102
43
Bristol, UK
TBH, the only actual counter that I can think of is the variety of cards which let you interupt their action. Such as reaction fire, history of violence, etc.
But Necromunda isn't meant to be a competitive game, and it falls apart pretty quickly as soon as players try to milk the rules - as you've found out.
 

Alobar

Gang Hero
When you set up the board, you place a tile in a corner that will allow you to set up behind 1 door at best, or 2 doors. Space your guys out as much as poss and as far as poss from the door (all will become clear). The tiles and doors need to be set up so that his only possible route to you is through those doors.

The door(s) should be set up with terminals. Place the terminal round the corner from the door, so that a fighter activating the terminal will not be able to shoot through the door from that same position (ie no fighter can open the door and shoot through it with only 2 activations, they'd need to move).

Then play will start and he'll likely do the usual.

On his turn 2, he'll get priority as usual, that's fine, you want him to. He'll use an intelligence check with the first guy to open the door. He could fail it once which would be a bonus. Assuming he passes, then play the Rigged Door tactics card to close the door again. He then uses another action and intelligence check to open it again. You then play the broken terminal tactics card (forget it's name) that means he auto fails to pass the check. That's at least 2 actions and failures to open the door and get at you. He has 2 fighters left at this point, probably, and a decision to make. He would probably have placed 2 fighters, at least, within range of the terminal so he could try again. If he didn't, that's another action just to move the next fighter to the terminal. He would probably then back himself and use his next fighter to open the door, again with an intelligence check which he could fail (don't bank on that). That fighter has 1 activation left, and as mentioned above, he can't shoot from his position, so he'll move I guess. Next and now his last fighter. (Note he may have a tactics card to get another activation which he'll now use, probably).
The door should now be open, so his last fighter now gets to move and fire once. You'll have positioned your guys wisely, so he can only get 1 under the template, 2 at most, but he'll have to be in the room to do that (which he might not be willing to risk). Someone will likely be webbed or flamed, but that's fine, it's now your turn. (He may use a 'fire twice' tactics card at this point which would suck, but still it's only 1 of the 3 fighters that is able to actually shoot).

Your turn. His best 3 fighters are now within charge range for your best hth guy, or close range of your best shooters (assuming you're able to move to get the shot). Use group activations, overseer, stims, flamers, or whatever. This part is pretty flexible to be fair, you just do your thing.
The rest of his gang will likely need to double-move to get in a position to help their top 3 guys, who are at your mercy, so you'll likely be able to ignore them. That means you have the whole round to activate all your fighters against those 3 bad guys. Plan ahead how to do it. You should be able to get all 3 of them wounded, perhaps all 3 down with good dice and using your fighters in the right order. And if one goes down, he gets a coup de gras obviously.

At the end of that round he'll have to take a bottle test, unless your gang are truly hopeless, and if his losses have caused a psychological blow he may even voluntarily bottle. (Gloating or goading at this point is not gentlemanly but would be funny and worth it).

If he doesn't bottle, at least you've gotten back to what you're used to, and his best 3 guys (or however many remain) are still right next to your whole gang (minus the one chap who got shot of course).

It's worth studying the tiles to see which one could facilitate this...
 
  • Like
Reactions: spafe and Ben_S

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
2,835
6,171
138
34
Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
When you set up the board, you place a tile in a corner that will allow you to set up behind 1 door at best, or 2 doors. Space your guys out as much as poss and as far as poss from the door (all will become clear). The tiles and doors need to be set up so that his only possible route to you is through those doors.
Needle Ways let you spawn fighters anywhere as long as it's ground level. A door won't protect you.
 

Alobar

Gang Hero
Needle Ways let you spawn fighters anywhere as long as it's ground level. A door won't protect you.
Hmm. Good spot. But they can't set up within 1 inches of an enemy, so perhaps choose the tile with the small room and single doorway, and set up all fighters virtually base to base. He'll not be able to set up with you then.
If he places a ductway to the room you're screwed, but there is a tactics card you can play to nullify that, albeit only on your own activation...
 

TabulaRasa

Gang Champion
Jul 26, 2018
422
337
63
Stockholm
Obviously your gaming group plays with tactic cards and they are the most obvious way to try to deal with this situation. If you yourself don't want to purchase all of them (if they become available as before), then maybe talk with your gaming group to buy one ot two complete sets to pass around. Or just find out the which ones includes the cards you want. There's plenty of them that I can think of that would hinder his play. For instance, insist on playing zone mortalis and if he have a habit of putting up all of his fighters close to each other, play unsure footing and see how many falls down in the pit. The easiest might even be to play 'seize initiative' (or whatever it's called yourself), which in my book would negate each other, leaving you on a roll off again - then it's just down to priority as to who kills who and he'll probably want to play a bit more cautious himself.

All in all I think it's important to learn to play the tactic cards game if your group allows them. Personally I don't mind them, but sometimes it gets boring when the same ones gets used over and over again. In some cases it's down to lack of imagination of the players and sometimes they're just too necessary for your game style. For instance I never left home without 'proper preparations' for my Goliath heavy bolter - making it far too good for it's price. It made me grow a bit bored by it though.
 

Deathwatch

Juve
Apr 16, 2017
10
10
3
Nottingham, UK
Unsure footing isn't a bad idea, because Venators dont have that great an Initiative do they?
Also you could probably argue that his Venators only count as Delaque for the purpose of Territories and Boons in the Dominion campaign, not for cards. If you use them in skirmish, or as printed in the WD articles, there is no mention of them being a gang for the purposes of taking cards. Doing this would at least stop him using the card to prevent your leader turning up.