N18 Needle Ways & Sentries Rule

[Dnk_83]

Right fellow yakkers, help me out here!

I am playing a dominion campaign (as Delaque) and have Needle Ways so I am able to infiltrate up to two groups of three after round 1, excellent! HOWEVER, if I am the defender in a Sentries scenario what (of the below) happens:

1. I am able to infiltrate 2 groups of three at the end of round one (from my starting selection) and they are able to move and act as normal

2. I am able to infiltrate 2 groups of three at the end of round one (from my starting selection) and they have the Sentries rule applied to them and their cards get shuffled into the 'Sentries' deck as per the Sentry rule

3. Pfft..don't be ridiculous! Sentries can't infiltrate!

I cannot see anything in the rules regarding this, unless there is a key sentence that I have missed? Has anyone else come upon this issue?

 

[Valar]

I can't help but that's a damn interesting rules interaction and I would like to see people's ideas

 

[Spenetrator]

3 For me. The rules may not specifically preclude it, but the idea is that you are unaware of the enemy.
The use of infiltration would imply you were aware of them and getting the jump on them.

 

[Thorgor]

I agree it should be #3, but I couldn't find anything to support it in the books either.
I don't think that #1 can work, as the activation rules don't really allow for having both sentries and non-sentries on the field at the same time.
#2 is technically possible, and I guess is RAW, but it really doesn't feel right.

Whatever the correct answer is, it should also apply to the Infiltrate skill (and I think that there is also a Tactics card that does something similar (edit: yeah, Service Tunnels, but it uses the Infiltrate skill))

Speaking of sentries and Tactics cards, I wonder what happens if you play Opening Volley, Stealthy advance (or any card that lets a fighter make an action really) on sentries...

 

[Dnk_83]

I am also leaning towards #3...#1 is more hope than any thing else and #2, although logical, doesn't seem sensible. I was just interested to see what other people think of it, as there is several opportunities (as @Thorgor mentions) that this could come up in.

 

[Malo]

We had a similar situation on the weekend with the Ambush. The defending gang (being ambushed) had several Infiltrators and Needle Ways. They would have ended up with zero models deployed to actually be ambushed. I decided to not allow it as I felt the special deployment rules for the scenario took precedence over those rules however I didn't like the decision.

There was a point made on FB that if they have no fighters at the end of any round, they do automatically lose so there is that lol.

 

[Dnk_83]

@Malo it would be embarrassing to insta-lose by infiltration! Although it may be useful should you want to preserve uninjured gang members!

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

I don't allow the defenders in a sentry mission to use any form of infiltration, neither do I allow the attacker to di so when the defender has home turn advantage. Haven't considered the ambush one though... that issue slipped by my house rules.

 

[Malo]

So Ambush has the option for defenders who roll a 6 for deployment to be placed after the attackers. I was thinking perhaps those with Infiltration or using Needle Ways to be an automatic 6 rather than use the full Infiltration rules. But there must be some defenders, otherwise attacker deployment makes no sense.

At least 1 defender not infiltration? Half rounded up? I'd rather not make Infiltration a skill that is an auto-win for these types of scenarios.

 

[TopsyKretts]

There are numerous scenarios that isn't compatible with infiltrate. Any scenario using Sentries will not work. The Gauntlet does not support infiltrate. The Spire becomes broken with infiltrate. There are multiple skills that simply does not work in every situation, some only work in specific scenarios (infiltrate), others only work on specific terrain (2d/3d).

I agree it should be #3, but I couldn't find anything to support it in the books either.
I don't think that #1 can work, as the activation rules don't really allow for having both sentries and non-sentries on the field at the same time.
#2 is technically possible, and I guess is RAW, but it really doesn't feel right.

Whatever the correct answer is, it should also apply to the Infiltrate skill (and I think that there is also a Tactics card that does something similar (edit: yeah, Service Tunnels, but it uses the Infiltrate skill))

Speaking of sentries and Tactics cards, I wonder what happens if you play Opening Volley, Stealthy advance (or any card that lets a fighter make an action really) on sentries...

I thought there were some rule at some point preventing sentries from using cards until the alarm was raised?

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

So Ambush has the option for defenders who roll a 6 for deployment to be placed after the attackers. I was thinking perhaps those with Infiltration or using Needle Ways to be an automatic 6 rather than use the full Infiltration rules. But there must be some defenders, otherwise attacker deployment makes no sense.

At least 1 defender not infiltration? Half rounded up? I'd rather not make Infiltration a skill that is an auto-win for these types of scenarios.

I like this ruling for Ambush and The Trap. I have disallowed it for the Fighter Down scenario as well, it's an auto win there as well.

 

[Matt Spencer]

There was a point made on FB that if they have no fighters at the end of any round, they do automatically lose so there is that lol.

Apologies for the off-topic post, but is that an actual rule in the rulebook somewhere? And, if so, does it apply to all scenarios or just Ambush? I couldn't find anything saying a gang loses if it has no fighters on the board, just that the game ends.

 

[Valar]

A lot of scenarios have the line “the game ends when one gang has no fighters left on the battlefield”.

I guess if you don’t deploy any then yeah, you have no one left on the field!

 

[Thorgor]

The game ends, but it doesn't mean the player with no fighter loses the game.
In the case of Ambush, the defender actually wins the game if they deploy no fighter (the attackers only wins if "more defender were taken Out of Action than escaped", and no fighter was taken OoA).
However, their fighter don't gain XP (they didn' take part in the battle) and they don't get any reputation (no fighter escaped), while the attacker's fighter gain XP. The defender still gets to gain/keep the territory though.

I thought there were some rule at some point preventing sentries from using cards until the alarm was raised?

Correct, I missed it. It's in the rules for each scenario using sentries: the defender's tactics cards cannot be played until the alarm is raised.

 

[TopsyKretts]

At least 1 defender not infiltration? Half rounded up? I'd rather not make Infiltration a skill that is an auto-win for these types of scenarios.

What about Necromunda Community Edition (previous Necromunda), max 50% of initial crew?

 

[Vonvilkee]

Are there actually rounds when sentries rules are in play? Away from book right now but this might prevent the game from ending until normal turns start...

 

[TopsyKretts]

Yes, and rounds will increase chance of raising alarm:

"From the 5th round onwards, if the attacker rolls 1 or 2 for the Priority, the alarm is raised."

 

[Vonvilkee]

Nuts!