N18 Nerfing Boltgun?

[JawRippa]

How would you nerf the infamous boltgun (and is there a need to nerf to begin with?)

I feel that boltgun has way too much for the cost, it has decent strength, AP and D2 allows one-shotting most enemies with ease. The downside of AM6+ is a very weird one - it can easily never come into play (no jams rolled throughout the battle) or it could easily take away your gun with the first shot. Rapid fire + D2 + AP-1 allows it to take down even brutes at times.
I think that boltgun would be more fair if it lost Rapid fire, but got its ammocheck improved to AM5+.

 

[DamianK]

That 6+ Has bit me in the backside on many occasions, and once it's happened, trying to reload is mostly a waste of time, so for me it might as well be just scarce. That being said, I'd rarther boltgun went up in price before messing with other stats.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Well if you play in hive Primus those space marines upstairs would object to you using thier holy weapons. Violently.

 

[Psyan]

I'd be ok with a small price hike and making it a Special weapon for most gangs.

 

[spafe]

up it to 65 or 70 creds maybe, little increase like that will make it less competitive. I dont think it needs more than that

 

[Boff89]

It doesn't need a nerf. It's good yes, but also a 6+ ammo roll makes them pretty precarious at times.
I think you can play against some bolt guns and have a very bad time, but you can also play against them and watch them miss most shots and jam. It's swingy. In my experience in using and being against them, I have found on average they good but not breaking by any means.

 

[Heart of Storm]

I'm in the "boltgun doesn't need nerfing" crowd, its nearly 4 times more expensive than an autogun, and for that gets extra strength, damage and AP, which seems fair for the price.

If you were going to nerf it however, making it universally special is one way to do so, alternatively if you really hate boltguns for whatever reason and need to nerf it down, remove rapid fire - gangers arent space marines after all and sustaining rapid fire in a gun like a bolter is probably real tough for a normal human

 

[-Rud-]

I agree, in context against other basic weapons and plasma options it's fine.

Personally I'd like to see all rapid fire hits act a bit more like weapons with "reckless", or at least have a check for if reckless applies (cool check maybe?).

The idea of a ganger using a bolter/heavy stubber etc and magically hitting all successive hits seems unlikely. If the risk wasn't just extra ammo rolls it would add a fun risk/reward aspect.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Well if you play in hive Primus those space marines upstairs would object to you using thier holy weapons. Violently.

That’s one of those interesting disconnects between fluff and game. Originally all guns were available to everyone (Rogue Trader era). Slowly the fluff has evolved to each 40k faction having their own brand of guns. Eldar originally made the best lasguns!!

Then you get Necromunda (the game) which uses the same guns as main 40k (1995) and then Necromunda (2017+) which adds a load of extra stuff while also using much of the same guns as before.

Only conclusion is they’re really crappy knockoffs. A Necromunda Boltgun is most likely manufactured on the side and is vastly inferior to a Marine one, which is supposed to be a relic. Who knows about IG/AM ones?? Probably also awful.

 

[Psyan]

It seems reasonable that the cops (Palanite Enforcers/Subjugators) get the nicer, more reliable Boltguns (4+ ammo rolls) and that Space Marines would get even better gear... 2+ or 3+, perhaps. I mean, they have servitors whose only job is to annoint Space Marine gear with holy oil. It should work well.
One of the justifications I've seen for the Boltgun's 6+ ammo roll is the low availability of quality ammunition. This makes a fair amount of sense to me.

 

[spafe]

A space marine boltgun is not the same boltgun held my imperial guard, nobility or the gangers in the underhive. By that I mean it physically is not the same spec weapon. There was an old lore snip where it basically stated if a human tried to fire a boltgun (if they were able to lift it), it would either break their arm, shoulder and possibly neck, or bodily rip their arm off their body.

The boltguns built for a human to use, they are weaker, less advanced, and likely with some stability enhancements, and thus lighter. These inferior ones are the ones handled by guard officers etc. There are then even more inferior ones that are handed out to enforcers, which likely lack the comforts to make them easier, more reliable and easier to handle than the guard ones. You then get the next step down, which are the ramshackle knock offs, friday afternoon jobs that find their way into the hands of gangers, which have in built defects due to manufacturing errors, wear and tear, negligence in weapon maintenance, etc.

These are what the gangers have access to. While it technically is the same family of weaponry wielding by the marines.... it really really isnt.

 

[JawRippa]

A space marine boltgun is not the same boltgun held my imperial guard, nobility or the gangers in the underhive. By that I mean it physically is not the same spec weapon. There was an old lore snip where it basically stated if a human tried to fire a boltgun (if they were able to lift it), it would either break their arm, shoulder and possibly neck, or bodily rip their arm off their body.

The boltguns built for a human to use, they are weaker, less advanced, and likely with some stability enhancements, and thus lighter. These inferior ones are the ones handled by guard officers etc. There are then even more inferior ones that are handed out to enforcers, which likely lack the comforts to make them easier, more reliable and easier to handle than the guard ones. You then get the next step down, which are the ramshackle knock offs, friday afternoon jobs that find their way into the hands of gangers, which have in built defects due to manufacturing errors, wear and tear, negligence in weapon maintenance, etc.

These are what the gangers have access to. While it technically is the same family of weaponry wielding by the marines.... it really really isnt.

TBH Necromunda gets a lot of stuff wrong lore-wise, at times it does not feel like it belongs in 40k universe at all.

1. A human should not be able to use autocannons/heavy bolters/lascannons/plasmacannons solo. Heck, this is an exceptional trait of the imperial guard named character Harker (the fact that he can wield a heavy bolter alone) - normal humans should not be able to use heavy weapons solo, like astartes. Imperial guard makes use of heavy weapon teams, not heavy weapons guys.
2. Long-las is supposed to be extremely effecient at armour penetration (a well-placed shot can penetrate astartes armour), at the cost of the gun being hard to keep in good condition, with the gun's barrel warping from extended use.
3. Anti-grav technology is supposed to be rare - only wealthy and powerful should have access to it, meanwhile van saars put their juves on grav boards.

 

[MusingWarboss]

TBH lorewise Necromunda gets a lot of stuff wrong lore-wise, at times it does not feel like it belongs in 40k universe at all.

1. A human should not be able to use autocannons/heavy bolters/lascannons/plasmacannons solo. Heck, this is an exceptional trait of the imperial guard named character Harker (the fact that he can wield a heavy bolter alone) - normal humans should not be able to use heavy weapons solo, like astartes. Imperial guard makes use of heavy weapon teams, not heavy weapons guys.
2. Long-las is supposed to be extremely effecient at armour penetration (a well-placed shot can penetrate astartes armour), at the cost of the gun being hard to keep in good condition, with the gun's barrel warping from extended use.
3. Anti-grav technology is supposed to be rare - only wealthy and powerful should have access to it, meanwhile van saars put their juves on grav boards.

Well if we’re going down that route better start a new thread!!!

Necromunda, despite protestations to the contrary and GW designers wanting it to be in step with current 40k, feels like it’s set in the time of Rogue Trader 40k.

From statline to in universe technology.

There’s your shoulder mounted Heavy weapon right there. One guy.

It’s also noticeably minuscule to the ones held by Marines, even from that era.

Of course in reality we know they just reconned a whole load of stuff for 2nd Edition 40k and each subsequent one after that gets modifications. It’s to the point now that each version feels more or less like a parallel universe to older ones, with the lore gap getting bigger over time.

None of the ideas in modern Necromunda are that bonkers if you’ve read the original RT book. In fact a fair few are in there, including anti-grav surfboards.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Jawrippa
1) Proof that Catachans are wimps. I knew those muscles are just for show!
2) Yep totally agree. They should have just made it a laser long rifle like the suppression laser is a laser shotgun at a minimum.
3) How dare the Van Saar do math and science!

 

[Lunarcruiser]

On the original point. Maybe the bolter should start with a worse underhive bolt like a S 3 ap -1 D1shot and you need to buy actually bolter shells.

 

[JawRippa]

All in all, I think I'll try removing rapid fire from the boltgun, but improve its AM characteristic to AM5+.

None of the ideas in modern Necromunda are that bonkers if you’ve read the original RT book. In fact a fair few are in there, including anti-grav surfboards.

Huh, that's a good take on it.

3) How dare the Van Saar do math and science!

I honestly don't mind van saars having access to grav technology, what pisses me off is the fact that the anti-grav tech is used by juves and not gang leaders/champions. It makes as much sense as, say, space marines giving special and rare weapons to fresh scouts.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

I honestly don't mind van saars having access to grav technology, what pisses me off is the fact that the anti-grav tech is used by juves and not gang leaders/champions. It makes as much sense as, say, space marines giving special and rare weapons to fresh scouts.

I think the idea was only youths who don't know better would careen around on a high speed hover board like loons.
As a middle-aged biker my self that theory is rubbish.
The Bullet Run download from Warhammer Community has a Van Saar leader on a grav cutter in the story so maybe they will do rules for them or custom wasteland dirtbike options or such for the gangs.

I can dream right?

 

[DarkMouse]

TBH Necromunda gets a lot of stuff wrong lore-wise, at times it does not feel like it belongs in 40k universe at all.

1. A human should not be able to use autocannons/heavy bolters/lascannons/plasmacannons solo. Heck, this is an exceptional trait of the imperial guard named character Harker (the fact that he can wield a heavy bolter alone) - normal humans should not be able to use heavy weapons solo, like astartes. Imperial guard makes use of heavy weapon teams, not heavy weapons guys.
2. Long-las is supposed to be extremely effecient at armour penetration (a well-placed shot can penetrate astartes armour), at the cost of the gun being hard to keep in good condition, with the gun's barrel warping from extended use.
3. Anti-grav technology is supposed to be rare - only wealthy and powerful should have access to it, meanwhile van saars put their juves on grav boards.

Wait Necromunda is set in 40k?

I jest but I honestly always kept Necromunda separate in my head so that stuff like that couldn't annoy me, One dude carrying an autocannon? Maybe not in 40k but this is the underhive! It's a law unto itself!
The idea that they can handle destructive weaponry? They just slap it together and hope it holds!

I find that if I divorce GWs games from their parent setting it becomes a much more enjoyable experience for me, especially as it gives me cart blanche to come up with some of my own lore and stuff without needing to rigidly adhere to 'established' lore

I apologise for the extension to an already derailed thread as recompense

Boltguns can easily do nothing, wreck everyone it's pointed at or anything in between. Removing traits rather than tweaking points costs is, in my opinion, unnecessary and likely to create a bad feeling for players with one or two in their gang already