A player was playing a delaque caster. He was casting some type of spell against a model that had nerves of steel he stated that since it was a psychic attack and not a range attack that nerves of steel does not apply. Is this correct? I am assuming it is not correct. But this game is complicated.
N18 Nerves of steel and spells
- Thread starter footpatrol2
- Start date
Spatial Psychosis is not an attack as it does not have a weapon profile. Therefore, Nerves of Steel does not apply.
Fun bonus fact, Coupe de grace (edited for spelling) is also not an attack.
Fun bonus fact, Coupe de grace (edited for spelling) is also not an attack.
Last edited:
So it's unique to spatial psychosis? Does the nerves of steel require a weapon profile to work? It just says range attack for it to trigger. Other psychic range attacks would trigger nerves of steel or not?
It's not unique to Spatial Psychosis, there are other psychic powers that pin.
Some powers grant a weapon profile and are considered attacks, such as some of the powers from Pyromancy.
None of the Delaque Psychoteric Whispers grant a weapon profile and none of them are considered attacks, ranged or otherwise.
An attack is something that has a weapon profile. If you are affected by something that doesn't have a weapon profile and pins you, then you are out of luck with Nerves of Steel.
Some powers grant a weapon profile and are considered attacks, such as some of the powers from Pyromancy.
None of the Delaque Psychoteric Whispers grant a weapon profile and none of them are considered attacks, ranged or otherwise.
An attack is something that has a weapon profile. If you are affected by something that doesn't have a weapon profile and pins you, then you are out of luck with Nerves of Steel.
Those usually come with a weapon profile attached to them, and thus are ranged attacks.
I don't have the Book of the Outcast handy, do you have an example of power that meets that criteria that doesn't have a weapon profile attached to it?
By weapon profile I mean something like:
| Short Range | Long Range | Short modifier | Long modifier | Strength | Armor Penetration | Damage | Traits |
Last edited:
Unfortunately an "attack" isn't explicitly defined anywhere. This was the best, most consistent definition me and my group could come up with.
Another person brought up a similar question with booby traps here:
yaktribe.games
At the end of the day it's really up to your arbiter.
Personally I'd stick with the weapon profile definition for what is considered an attack (attacks are made with weapons).
It's simple, clear, and doesn't have edge cases.
That said feel free to lawyers up a more specific definition for your group. As long as everyone agrees then you don't have a problem.
In my opinion, the spirit of Nerves of Steel is that they are being cool under pressure (getting physically hit with a bullet, shrapnel, explosions, etc). Not that they have mental willpower to resist psychically induced vertigo.
Another person brought up a similar question with booby traps here:
N18 - Are Booby Traps considered ranged attacks?
Triggering a booby trap is considered a ranged attack for purpose of Nerves of Steel ability?
yaktribe.games
At the end of the day it's really up to your arbiter.
It specifically says "ranged attacks", if it wanted to work on everything they would have said "make a cool check to not be pinned" and omitted that detail. (Note the ranged attack clause is why Spring Up is generally the better anti-pinned skill).
Personally I'd stick with the weapon profile definition for what is considered an attack (attacks are made with weapons).
It's simple, clear, and doesn't have edge cases.
That said feel free to lawyers up a more specific definition for your group. As long as everyone agrees then you don't have a problem.
In my opinion, the spirit of Nerves of Steel is that they are being cool under pressure (getting physically hit with a bullet, shrapnel, explosions, etc). Not that they have mental willpower to resist psychically induced vertigo.
The examples referred to are from the wyrd powers in outcast which specifically had no weapon profiles.
They are written in such a way as if supporting your definition of ranged attack requiring a weapon profile
Coup de grâce not coup de gras.
The first one mean mercy killing the last one mean striking with fat. It's pronounced like grass.Also quick question if the psychic power has "a weapon profile" could it be use in CC like crush because it's specifically say within 12. This for me include CC.
Last edited:
That's a good point. I believe it can, because it isn't strictly a ranged attack? But using BS is at least a hint at it not being intended? Same goes for Pinned.
Edit: Arguably, Crush isn't a ranged attack, so perhaps yes. But for wyrd powers with an actual (ranged attack) weapon profile, it should perhaps not be used in CC?
Edit: Arguably, Crush isn't a ranged attack, so perhaps yes. But for wyrd powers with an actual (ranged attack) weapon profile, it should perhaps not be used in CC?
Last edited:
So, not 100% sure on original answer, but…
Nerves of Steel: “When the fighter is hit by a Ranged Attack…”
Shooting: “There are several ways in which a model may make a Ranged Attack against an enemy model, most frequently by performing an action that allows it to do so, but certain skills and gang tactics will also allow various models to make a ranged attack outside of the game’s normal sequence.
Whenever a model makes a ranged attack against one or more enemy models, this sequence is followed:
——
So, from that, I’d note that Spatial Psychosis does not require steps 1, 2 (in the sense the fighter is not ‘armed’ with a weapon called ‘spatial psychosis’) and 4, which are the steps which constitute a Ranged Attack.
There are of course ranged attacks which also miss a step (e.g. Template weapons) but the rules for template weapons explicitly state which steps they miss out.
Are there examples of explicitly named ’Ranged Attacks’ which ignore the usual step-by-step process for a ranged attack?
If not, I’d say Spatial Psychosis is not a Ranged Attack, and so does not trigger Nerves of Steel.
If so, then yes rules need clarifying.
My gut is (and I don’t recall if ever come up against this) it is not a ranged attack, and does not trigger Nerves of Steel.
And from a narrative point of view, being Pinned is supposed to represent being knocked of your feet by an unexpected shot, or ducking out the way of a near shot. Nerves of Steel represents being a hard case who takes the shot without being knocked over or being unphased by the fire. Spatial Psychosis however represents a psychic attack confusing your senses and making you lose your sense of balance. Being so hard, or so stupid, that you don’t duck doesn’t affect that.
Nerves of Steel: “When the fighter is hit by a Ranged Attack…”
Shooting: “There are several ways in which a model may make a Ranged Attack against an enemy model, most frequently by performing an action that allows it to do so, but certain skills and gang tactics will also allow various models to make a ranged attack outside of the game’s normal sequence.
Whenever a model makes a ranged attack against one or more enemy models, this sequence is followed:
- Assess Target Priority
- Declare the Shot: “choose a ranged weapon the model is armed with”
- Measure Range
- Make the Hit Roll: “a hit roll is a ballistic skill test”
- Resolve Hits
——
So, from that, I’d note that Spatial Psychosis does not require steps 1, 2 (in the sense the fighter is not ‘armed’ with a weapon called ‘spatial psychosis’) and 4, which are the steps which constitute a Ranged Attack.
There are of course ranged attacks which also miss a step (e.g. Template weapons) but the rules for template weapons explicitly state which steps they miss out.
Are there examples of explicitly named ’Ranged Attacks’ which ignore the usual step-by-step process for a ranged attack?
If not, I’d say Spatial Psychosis is not a Ranged Attack, and so does not trigger Nerves of Steel.
If so, then yes rules need clarifying.
My gut is (and I don’t recall if ever come up against this) it is not a ranged attack, and does not trigger Nerves of Steel.
And from a narrative point of view, being Pinned is supposed to represent being knocked of your feet by an unexpected shot, or ducking out the way of a near shot. Nerves of Steel represents being a hard case who takes the shot without being knocked over or being unphased by the fire. Spatial Psychosis however represents a psychic attack confusing your senses and making you lose your sense of balance. Being so hard, or so stupid, that you don’t duck doesn’t affect that.
This technicality has some implications. Against Nerves of Steel (and other special rules that protect against ranged attacks), having a wyrd power "attack at range" like Crush seems better in most cases than having an wyrd power with weapon profile? So a wyrd power mimicking a ranged attack is better than a wyrd power with an actual ranged attack (weapon profile). Looks like different wording for wyrd powers varies over time, but these variations matter. Without ranged attack, do they even ignore save? Save triggers on "hit"? Perhaps they're all worded in such a way that wyrd powers that inflict damage are described as "hits", while wyrd powers that do other negative effects don't use the word "hit"?
I though saves triggered on wounds?
Or were you specifically talking about Crush?
TBH, it's not even clear if Crush pins
. It probably does? It uses BS to hit and roughly goes through the "Shooting" sequence and sort of has a weapon profile:0-12" range, no mods, no str, no wounds, no ap, special rule in the traits column.
Thematically it's a "physical attack", crushing someone with your mind.
Quite the mess GW has made for themselves with the rules.
Last edited:
Haha wow, what if it doesn't even pins? But when I read the rules regarding armour save, it is triggered by "hit" yes. So a lot of effects can give "hit", thus enabling save. But if an effect doesn't give a hit, then it also ignores saves.
An armour save is triggered by any ‘Hit’ which results in a wound or injury roll.
”If a hit results in a successful Wound roll, or leads to an Injury roll being made against the fighter for any reason, the fighter may be able to make a Save roll.”
Relevant Psychic Powers as below… the use of a description of a ‘hit’ aligns (in my view) with the description of the power as to whether it results in a ‘physical’ assault that armour might offer protection from:
“Hit”
”If a hit results in a successful Wound roll, or leads to an Injury roll being made against the fighter for any reason, the fighter may be able to make a Save roll.”
Relevant Psychic Powers as below… the use of a description of a ‘hit’ aligns (in my view) with the description of the power as to whether it results in a ‘physical’ assault that armour might offer protection from:
“Hit”
- Pyromancy - Molten Bolt (“If a hit is scored, it is resolved at Strength 8, Damage 3, AP -3”)
- Telekinesis - Assail (“make a hit roll, using this fighter's BS. If a hit is scored, move the target D3" in any direction … suffer a S3, AP -, D1 hit”)
- Telekinesis - Crush (“If a hit is scored, an obstacle is destroyed and removed from the battlefield, while an enemy fighter must make a save roll.”)
- Telekinesis - Hail Storm (“Each hit scored is resolved at Strength 1, Damage 1 and AP -“)
- Psychoteric Whispers - Suicidal Embrace (“This attack automatically hits, but must roll to wound and inflict Damage as normal.”)
- Spyker - Force Blast (“If this movement is interrupted by a wall, or other impassable terrain, the fighter is immediately Pinned and takes a hit with a Strength equal to the number of inches rolled for the push distance.”)
- Biomancy - Cause Pain (“That fighter must roll an Injury dice and immediately apply the effects.”)
- Psychoteric Whispers - Spatial Psychosis (“Choose a single enemy fighter within 12" of the Psyker, that is Standing and is not Engaged. That fighter immediately becomes Pinned.”)
- Psychoteric Whispers - Opprobrius Curse (“That fighter immediately makes a Toughness check. If this check is failed, the fighter immediately suffers a Flesh Wound.”)
- Spyker - Psychic Assault (“If the check is passed, the fighter is Pinned. If the test is failed, the fighter loses 1 Wound and is Pinned. If this reduces the fighter to 0 Wounds, roll one Injury dice and apply the result.”)
Similar threads
