N18 New enforcers (not so) theory hammer

[Jumbley]

That is a very scary Enforcers list - but to be fair to you, it hardly seems that much more oppressive than the kind of brutal stuff other gangs can bring... even at 1000 creds, an Escher netlist easily fits 10 models that can keep you pinned the whole game at mid-range if you let them.

 

[Qrow.]

That is a very scary Enforcers list - but to be fair to you, it hardly seems that much more oppressive than the kind of brutal stuff other gangs can bring... even at 1000 creds, an Escher netlist easily fits 10 models that can keep you pinned the whole game at mid-range if you let them.

Yeah, I didn't notice how strong the list was until I played it a few times, then I dropped having fast shot on both sergeants and tried to make it more fun.
Other people have been giving it a good run, especially outside of zone mortalis, but it is oppressive to close combat focused gangs in ZM. Also had a great multiplayer match where the gangs decided that the cops were the priority and teamed up against me mid-game, thankfully the teamwork lasted just over 1 round before the escher player couldn't resist charging the van saar leader in the back and all hell broke loose.

 

[Bot_01]

Can we upgrade a palanite to a subjugator later on the campain?

 

[MrAndersson]

Can we upgrade a palanite to a subjugator later on the campain?

Our group has ruled that you can't, based on fluff. Reading about enforcers, it seems it's a distinctly different career path to become a subjugator.

 

[JayTee]

I'm about to kick off a semi-narrative L&M campaign as the Arbitrator, and I've been taking a look at the Enforcers in general specifically with how I'm going to suggest the group handles their slightly ropey ruleset.

So, assuming that Enforcers get access to the trading post and thus can buy normal Armour, what is the point of the Hardened Flak Armour upgrade?

AP	Flak + Suit	Flak + Suit (T)	H-Flak + Suit	H-Flak + Suit (T)	Mesh + Suit
0	5+	4+	5+	4+	4+
-1	6+	5+	6+	5+	5+
-2	N/A	6+	6+	5+	6+
-3	N/A	N/A	N/A	6+	N/A

Hopefully the table is somewhat sensible; the takeaway is that Mesh (For 15creds) is superior to Hardened Flak (For 20 creds) except when facing AP-2 or AP-3 Template/Blast weapons (Of which only a handful exist) and is 5creds cheaper to boot.

For Subjugators it's a little different as they start with slightly better Mesh Armour, so the Hardened upgrade has some utility (AP-2 and AP-3 weapons) and the only other upgrade is (Light) Carapace which is 50creds more than the Hardened upgrade.

This makes me think that Enforcers aren't meant to get access to the Trading post and thus Mesh Armour as it is pretty much better than their HWL upgrade. However, I really dislike locking the gang out of the 'fun' things that can be grabbed in the Trading Post such as Field Armour, Bionics, Grapnel launchers, etc. So my current feeling is that I'm going to allow Trading Post actions (And Black Market...) but Enforcers can't buy or equip Armour from these. There is mention in the BoJ (Pg112) about 'Enforcers ... rely on more advanced forms of protection such as energy fields' which gives more credence to them having access to the Trading Post.

However, I'm then concerned that without access to Mesh or Carapace that Enforcers are going to be taking a lot more wounding hits than others once we progress towards the late gate so I'm tempted to add Light Carapace to their HWL as a late-game solution and the Hardened Upgrade ends up being a more mid-game upgrade. Even then I'm not even sure the 20creds cost of Hardened Flak is worth it, it only helps against AP-2 weapons or AP-2/-3 Templates which seems fairly expensive for what is realistically a niche scenario. Perhaps if the AP reduction had a minimum of AP0 rather than AP-1? That would make H-Flak worse than Mesh against AP0 weapons, same against AP-1 and AP-2, and superior in Templated AP-1, AP-2, and AP-3 weapons which sounds like a reasonable tradeoff for an extra 5creds?

Other rules I'm almost certainly including are to expand the ammunition selection for the Enforcer weapons, including some of the various BoJ/BoP ammunition types that make some logical sense. Either via the Trading Post or via the HWL as it seems logical that the Enforcers should be able to purchase specialist ammo and some equipment, such as Magnacles, from the Imperial House.

• Enforcer Combat Shotguns get access to:
  • Gas Shells (maybe)
  • Shatter Shells
  • Executioner Rounds (Can't believe they don't already, considering the original loadout for Enforcer/Arbites) - HWL
  • Plantbuster Shells - HWL
  • Phosphor Shells - HWL
  • Rad Shells (maybe)
• Enforcer Bolters get access to:
  • Gas rounds (maybe)
  • Shatter rounds
• Enforcer Grenade Launchers get access to:
  • Anti-plant - HWL
  • Flare - HWL
  • Plasma (maybe)
• Enforcer autopistols get access to:
  • Plantbuster rounds - HWL
  • Phosphor rounds - HWL
  • Rad rounds (maybe)
• Enforcers will get access to:
  • Anti-plant grenades - HWL
  • Flares - HWL
  • Plasma grenades (maybe)
  • Magnacles - HWL
  • Lock-punch - HWL
  • Medicae kit - HWL
  • Photo goggles - HWL
  • Respirator - HWL

Couple of maybes in there; Gas rounds do make sense with access to Choke grenades, Rad rounds are iffy as they don't thematically fit, and I think Plasma does probably fit but seems like something a bit punchy to equip your 'police' with. Then again, Police Brutality is absolutely a thing. There's a lot of personal equipment in there on the HWL, which makes thematic sense but somewhat decreases the value of the Trade Action so I'm iffy about all of those things on the HWL.

Black Market is a bit trickier, and really a lot of the Black Market stuff is inaccessible due to the weapon restrictions, but I like the idea of Enforcers going 'undercover' to grab some Ghast, or Static rounds, or Grapplehawks. The potential 5Rep loss is pretty huge so makes for some interesting decisions.

 

[Jumbley]

This makes me think that Enforcers aren't meant to get access to the Trading post and thus Mesh Armour as it is pretty much better than their HWL upgrade.

While I agree with your analysis on Hardened armour here, I'm less inclined to agree with making this connection: it would hardly be the first time in Necromunda that an item is overcosted when you consider better alternatives! It might just be poorly balanced, rather than being indicative of what the Enforcers are supposed to have access to. For just 5 credits more than Mesh, you can get an Ablative Overlay for an effective +2 (!) to your save, that stacks with both your regular armour and your Armoured Undersuit!

As an aside, I was re-reading the rules for Hardened flak while looking through your analysis (realizing I had been misplaying: I thought it was minimum AP0). The way I read the exact RAW for Hardened Flak Armour straight from the book is that the minimum AP it can be reduced to is 1 - that is to say, positive 1, like on a Club/Mace. Ergo, AP0 becomes AP1, and actually improves your save. Thoughts on this from the crowd? Is there a precedent for this sort of rule that could be referenced?

Other rules I'm almost certainly including are to expand the ammunition selection for the Enforcer weapons, including some of the various BoJ/BoP ammunition types that make some logical sense. Either via the Trading Post or via the HWL as it seems logical that the Enforcers should be able to purchase specialist ammo and some equipment, such as Magnacles, from the Imperial House.

Really liking this list as well: I felt the same way, that the Specialist Ammo types are very thematic for Enforcers. Trading post usage (and black market in particular) is just a lot of fun and it would suck to lock an Enforcer player out of that side of the campaign. Personally, I think a combination of having Trading Post/Black Market access as well as some new entries into their HWL is the best way to work with Enforcers without having to tweak them overmuch, or add any extra rules.

 

[Bot_01]

Hey guys! About Threat Response, is this skill stop the ennemy charge or you just attack before him and he counter attack after?

 

[Bot_01]

If your leader is a subjugator, is the sergeants count for the minimum of two others subjugator requires?

 

[Bot_01]

A last one.... according to gang composition, it is not clear if sergeant could be subjugator at the start. What is your thought about this?

 

[Glyn]

A last one.... according to gang composition, it is not clear if sergeant could be subjugator at the start. What is your thought about this?

The only published restrictions are about the leader. If you are meeting the rules for the leader, then you can do what you like with the rest of the gang.

 

[Glyn]

If your leader is a subjugator, is the sergeants count for the minimum of two others subjugator requires?

No, the rules specify 2x Patrolmen that match the leader.

 

[Glyn]

Hey guys! About Threat Response, is this skill stop the ennemy charge or you just attack before him and he counter attack after?

You charge after they complete movement. If you engage, you attack as normal.
If you fail to BTFO them, they make a retaliation (possibly at -1 if they
They then make the attack part of their charge against the original target, but they will be at a -1 due to interference, and possibly another -1 if they had to turn to make the attack.

Do you have the Book of Judgement?
All your questions are answered in there.

 

[Bot_01]

The only published restrictions are about the leader. If you are meeting the rules for the leader, then you can do what you like with the rest of the gang.

If the only restriction is about the leader. Then, I could have two sergeants subjugator and a palanite captain. Am i rigth?

 

[Glyn]

If the only restriction is about the leader. Then, I could have two sergeants subjugator and a palanite captain. Am i rigth?

As long as your leader + 2 patrolmen are the same. You can do whatever you want with your champions

 

[Bot_01]

Hey guys! Again..

Got your Six with Seismic weapon trait should stop immediately the charge. Even whitout hit. Am I rigth? This is a fair combo.

 

[Jumbley]

Hey guys! Again..

Got your Six with Seismic weapon trait should stop immediately the charge. Even whitout hit. Am I rigth? This is a fair combo.

It depends on how you choose to play with Seismic - there's an active discussion going on about it in this forum actually.

 

[TheCaptain1989]

While I agree with your analysis on Hardened armour here, I'm less inclined to agree with making this connection: it would hardly be the first time in Necromunda that an item is overcosted when you consider better alternatives! It might just be poorly balanced, rather than being indicative of what the Enforcers are supposed to have access to. For just 5 credits more than Mesh, you can get an Ablative Overlay for an effective +2 (!) to your save, that stacks with both your regular armour and your Armoured Undersuit!

As an aside, I was re-reading the rules for Hardened flak while looking through your analysis (realizing I had been misplaying: I thought it was minimum AP0). The way I read the exact RAW for Hardened Flak Armour straight from the book is that the minimum AP it can be reduced to is 1 - that is to say, positive 1, like on a Club/Mace. Ergo, AP0 becomes AP1, and actually improves your save. Thoughts on this from the crowd? Is there a precedent for this sort of rule that could be referenced?


Really liking this list as well: I felt the same way, that the Specialist Ammo types are very thematic for Enforcers. Trading post usage (and black market in particular) is just a lot of fun and it would suck to lock an Enforcer player out of that side of the campaign. Personally, I think a combination of having Trading Post/Black Market access as well as some new entries into their HWL is the best way to work with Enforcers without having to tweak them overmuch, or add any extra rules.

I’m very keen to hear others thoughts on your idea about how the hardened armour works - I think it makes sense and would mean the upgrade has actual value, especially for patrolmen, who I’m finding quite squishy.

 

[Jumbley]

We've been playing it this way in my campaign, and so far it's worked just fine - it's a small boost to survivability, but in practice you'll usually just be making a 4+ save anyway. At the end of the day, if they're not house-ruled, Ablative Overlays are still much better for their cost.

 

[JayTee]

My plans for my next campaign are to allow Hardened Flak to reduce all AP by 1 to a minimum of +1 (i.e. AP0 weapons actually give you a +1 to your save). This makes it on-par with Mesh Armour for non-Templates, and better than Mesh for all Templates which seems fair for armour that actually costs 5creds more than Mesh.

Hardened Layered Flak however is trickier, because if you do the same then it makes it as good as Carapace armour for non-Templates, and better than Carapace for Templates but for 50creds less. You can get cost reductions to the cost of Trading Post items through Savant skills, Alliances, and Territories, so you might get that Carapace for cheaper, but still.

I guess if Enforcers are not meant to get access to the Trading Post then it's a bit of a non-issue that there is a lack of internal balancing?

 

[Ml2sjw]

So new boxed game, new gaming group time for a new enforcers list I feel.

Based on my experiences with enforcers I revised my 1250 skirmish list a bit. Imhad held off converting and therefore using subjugators in my lists and it was apparent when playing I was missing something.

Anyway this is my current plan.
https://yaktribe.games/underhive/print/gang/77691?i=0&r=0

-Subjugator captain with grenade launcher and shield

- Palanite Sgt with bolt gun and trick shot
- Palanite Sgt with sniper rifle, Infrared sight and got your six

- Subjugator patrol man with SLGH
- Subjugator patrol man with grenade launcher and shield

- Palanite patrol man with bolt gun
- Palanite patrol man with bolt gun
- Palanite patrol man with concussion carbine

It's a small gang but that's enforcers for you, how you make an 1000 credit list with more than 6 guys is beyond me!

Should be fairly obvious in terms of lots of fire power from grenade launchera with the SLGH and three bolters to take care of high toughness characters. "Normal" grenade launchers and concussion carbine should be able to disrupt most guys with the subjugators and captain able to handle themselves in close combat.

What do you guys think?