New Old Battle Wound

piromanwwr

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Feb 10, 2015
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Hello,

I had some discussion with @Tomcaet about OBW. We have a little idea to change its current rules. Why? Because in its actual state it hurts a lot, especially in mid-late gangs (It can put OOA half of your rating or even more).
Currently there is no countermeasures for it (Ok, there is a bionic implant for Lawful gangs, and Mould Patch for Outlanders, but after 1 year of playing there was only few chances to get it, that I can count them on one hand).

The proposed rule could look like this:
34-36 OLD BATTLE WOUND.
The fighter recovers but his old wound sometimes affects his health. Roll a D6 before each game for each Old Battle Wound suffered. On the roll of a 1 the fighter’s will suffer a D3 negative modifier to all of his attributes (M, WS, BS, S, T, W, I, A, Lid) in this game, but it can't drop below 1. Due to his suffering he also gains the same negative modifier to all his ammo rolls for the current game. However he is still able to gain experience, income from territories, use skills like any other member of his gang.
If ganger has more than one OBW and he rolls that more than one occurs, then he take the highest rolled modifier on D3.

Example how the attributes of mid and late game ganger could look with new OBW rule:

Starting ganger :
M WS BS S T W I A Lid
4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7
After OBW:

M WS BS S T W I A Lid (on roll -1)
3 2 2 2 2 1 2 1 6
M WS BS S T W I A Lid (on roll -2)
2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 5
M WS BS S T W I A Lid (on roll -3)
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 4

Both -2 and -3 could really hurt on early-mid game, but:

Experienced Ganger:
M WS BS S T W I A Lid
4 5 6 3 4 3 5 2 8

M WS BS S T W I A Lid (on roll -1)
3 4 5 2 3 2 4 1 7
M WS BS S T W I A Lid (on roll -2)
2 3 4 1 2 1 3 1 6
M WS BS S T W I A Lid (on roll -3)
1 2 3 1 1 1 2 1 5

In worst case the ganger ( -3 mod) is still able to shoot, but he's very fragile and immobile). But he still can use his skills (especially medic or Armorer).

What do you think about it? Do you think it will works? Maybe you have some other house rules to change it? :)
 
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Tomcaet

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Nov 9, 2014
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All right, I confess, the Community Edition thread wasn't the only place I cried about OBW. :)

When I took a look at the Serious Injury Table I noticed what I think are significant similarities between Head Wounds and Old Battle Wounds. They both don't affect a single aspect of a fighter's ability, but they occasionally completely eliminate them from a game. Stat advances also won't help in any way (Leg Wound enter stage). There are several ways to handle Head Wounds for most gangs though, and while reduced mobility is a big drawback, it can still be worked with. There's currently nothing for OBW but the cure-alls, like rare Bionic Implant or Stinger Mould Patch.

This injury remains unchanged since ORB, and for good reason, I think - it's simple. Straightforward, easy to handle, little bookkeeping. It's also fairly popular, 3/36 results on the table. Might be effectively more as Dead is more likely to get Medic rerolled. And it cruelly stacks, not only on a single ganger, but for the whole gang. I also personally find it boring, all or nothing, and when it goes off, unannounced as always, it can spoil the game. You can't even reliably and/or sensibly plan against it.

Other thing I was thinking about in relation to OBW was adding a new common item, a bit analogous to the Head Wound's lobo-chip. Some charlatan's miraculous tonic or other prescription, one use and allowing to reroll the OBW die if the patient is feeling under the weather. Usable only for a particular OBW, and equipped by the fighter. Sometimes works! Adding new things is a more delicate business though. Modifying Stinger Pouch to somehow help with an OBW sounds interesting too. Better than only hoping for Bionics or Mould Patch.

What do others think about this take on OBW? I feel it's mechanically nice, although it seriously impedes a fighter's ability, they can still try and pull their weight. Unless they were randomly chosen for the scenario... (Didn't think of this during drafting.) This in place of eliminating them completely for the game. By fluff it's a bit worse, it's easier to imagine some unspecified injury immobilising a fighter than making them physically and mentally slower.
 
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cardyfreak

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Would having multiple OBW's stack modifiers be better than just having multiple dice rolls? So one OBW means a roll of 1 misses the game, 2 OBW's means 1/2 misses, and three OBW's means 1/2/3 misses a game.
Then perhaps the tonic could have a d3 modifier to an OBW roll, meaning you might only risk it for more seriously injured players. Or perhaps the tonic's effectiveness is defined upon purchase, like the ratskin map.
D6 1- snake oil! The tonic is simply a bottle of irradiated water or other chemically polluted fluid. The tonic is obviously ineffective and is discarded.
2/3- weak formula; the tonic negates one OBW.
4/5- good concoction; the tonic negated two OBW's.
6- marvellous medicine; the tonic negates 3 OBW's.

It's a bit clumsy, and doesn't really solve the issue but I figured I'd throw it out there anyway [emoji23]
 

Fold

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For my money the proposed version is too complex.

I think OBW's are fine as is. A better solution to the issue if you want one is to revise the way items are searched for so you can get the specific solution more reliably if needed i.e something like Mordheims rare trade rules.
 

Ben_S

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I agree with @Fold that this looks rather complicated. Also, if this were the effect, I think sometimes I'd rather the model in question missed the game than that they came along for the ride but were a complete liability. It could certainly be a big hindrance in a game with few, randomly selected models.
 

trollmeat

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Of those proposed so far in the thread, I like most that multiple Old Battle Wounds stack into one roll, with 2 OBW's meaning the model missed the game on a 1-2... As well as the Snake Oil item either reducing the chance or permitting 2D6 to be rolled and choosing... Also if Rare trade had the searching option that is being discussed in another thread:)

...but, I've not much personal experience with Old Battle Wounds due to them being 3rd on the list to be Souped after Leg Injury and Head Injury :p
 

Ben_S

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Would having multiple OBW's stack modifiers be better than just having multiple dice rolls? So one OBW means a roll of 1 misses the game, 2 OBW's means 1/2 misses, and three OBW's means 1/2/3 misses a game.
Of those proposed so far in the thread, I like most that multiple Old Battle Wounds stack into one roll, with 2 OBW's meaning the model missed the game on a 1-2...
I'm no maths expert, but I think this makes it more likely that you miss a game doesn't it?

If you roll two separate dice, and a 1 on either means missing the game, you have two 1/6 chances to miss the game, but the total chance is less than 1/3 because sometimes you'll roll a one on both dice. So, the overall chance of missing the game is 11/36 I believe.

Stacking reduces dice rolling, but actually makes you more likely to miss a game.
 

Tomcaet

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Stacking OBWs into one roll would worsen the odds a slight bit if untreated. But then handling it with an item of this sort would be easier.

I actually watch the rare trade searching discussion with bionics in mind from the beginning. :) What I wouldn't want to see though, is uncharacteristically quick patching of other, really serious injuries, and getting roborobbers all around. OBW is sneaky, pretty common, and only cure is a Bionic Implant. Making those easier available makes curing all injuries easier. I'm not sure I like the implications.

Getting an OBW weakened fighter randomly for a game is the only scenario I can think of where the suggestion worsens the OBW. I might have a skewed perspective, been a while since I played a Shootout or Hunters.

And I'm a big fan of the Scavvy fitness (as in "survival fitness") regimen.
 
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Ben_S

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Ah, so the suggestion was only to stack them in order to then implement a treatment method? Sorry, I thought stacking was itself supposed to be part of the solution.

Mind you, I still don't see how it helps much. Isn't it just as easy to implement things like @cardyfreak 's tonic suggestion with OBWs rolled separately? You can still have something that lets you ignore one OBW, meaning roll one less dice.
 

Azzabat

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Perhaps a simple way to get a happy compromise would be to introduce a new common item? Something like the Lobo chip for a head wound. i.e:


"Bio-patch:

The Bio Medical Repair Patch or "Bio-patch" is similar in general function to a Bionic replacement or Skull Chip, but nowhere near as reliable. The effect is to anaesthetise the part of the body incapacitated, allowing wearer to temporarily overcome their injury.

A fighter fitted with a Bio-patch is temporarily immune from the effects of one Old Battle Wound on a D6 roll of 4+ (rolled after a failed Old Battle Wound roll), however, the model's Initiative and Leadership is reduced to 1 and it cannot be modified in any way.

Bionic: A Bio-patch is a bionic so cannot be removed once implanted into a fighter.

Cost: 25 Credit"


This would give you a 50/50 failsafe should you roll a 1 on an OBW.

Thoughts everyone?
 

Ben_S

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the model's Initiative and Leadership is reduced to 1 and it cannot be modified in any way.
I like that they are rendered less effective if they do fight, but that does seem rather harsh for a mere 50% chance of overcoming the OBW.

I'd suggest something like 'they start the game with a flesh wound (-1 WS and BS)'. An initiative penalty seems like an appropriate idea, but using an existing mechanic reduces book-keeping.
 

Azzabat

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@Azzabat, is the intent of the bio-patch to reduce the stats only when it fires, or always, like for the lobo-chip?
Either really, that's why I thought I'd throw it open for discussion. I saw it as you still roll for the OBW as normal, but if you fail and you have a Bio-patch it gives you a 50/50 re-roll. I still like the idea however that an OBW can still take you out of the game. Maybe the D6 roll could be made better than a 50/50 chance?

"A fighter fitted with a Bio-patch is temporarily immune from the effects of one Old Battle Wound on a D6 roll of 2+ (rolled after a failed Old Battle Wound roll), however, the model starts the game with a Flesh Wound.

@Ben_S I like the idea of using an existing mechanic and starting with a flesh wound
 

piromanwwr

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I like that they are rendered less effective if they do fight, but that does seem rather harsh for a mere 50% chance of overcoming the OBW.

I'd suggest something like 'they start the game with a flesh wound (-1 WS and BS)'. An initiative penalty seems like an appropriate idea, but using an existing mechanic reduces book-keeping.
I like the idea with BIO-Patch, but the Leadership would be lowered to 2, instead of 1, because it's impossible to get that on two dice :p
The current OBW is much more harash than simple flesh wound, so I and L lowered to minimum looks good for me. Eventually only the I, because the drugs in BIO-Patch blur his senses.
 
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Fold

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If you changed OBW to stack, then letting a bio-patch allow a reroll of the OBW roll would be a neat alternative. You could then say you can only have one and it would become progressively less effective as you accumulated more OBWs.

I feel that making it common isn't in keeping with an item of this level of technological advancement, though. It'd be a rarity 8 or so item in my rarity table.

I prefer it starting the model with a flesh wound as mentioned that's an existing mechanic so it makes the rule neater.

A different item (perhaps a drug) could postpone the OBW missed game for one game. That way it'd still affect you but you could prevent them missing a critical game or prevent multiple OBW gangers being out at the same time.
 

enyoss

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All this discussion and some of the solutions put forward make me think that just changing the OBW effect to 'start the battle with a flesh wound' is simple and probably mild enough to not even warrant a special new item to mitigate it (which seems fair given OBW is the result one down from a full recovery). It could be one FW per OBW roll you fail, or just one FW if you fail any of the rolls, either seems fair be be honest.

It's as serious as a hand wound and a blinded in one eye result when you get that 1, but not so serious that it will junk your otherwise best fighters completely.
 

Tomcaet

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That's actually pretty good. While a flesh wound seems a lot less than a game missed, when looked like this:
It's ~twice as bad as Partially Blinded or a Hand Wound when triggered.
It's six times less likely to trigger for a given game.
It's three times easier to get as an Injury.
This makes some sense. I'd back tricks that make the Miss into a Flesh Wound.

I immediately envisioned the Biopatch as a device embedded in the area of the Wound, triggering when an inflammation or something worsens. Maybe working around the clock, but still locally. Then it would work only for that particular OBW, but then it'd not work as nicely with stacking rolls. Isn't a local bionic more fluffy than a general one?

And while I'd agree that bionics are advanced pieces, there's the elephant in the room - lobo-chip. It's supposed to work similarly to a Skull Chip, but it's Common. And its role is very similar to what the Patch is supposed to do. That's actually pretty much the only thing that sours the Bio-patch for me - heavy similarities to an existing item. I still like it though, and similarities might be inevitable, as Head Wounds and Old Battle Wounds have things in common.
 
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enyoss

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My intention was that it would still only affect the player if you roll a 1 before the battle. Basically, you kind of have an arm and eye wound which start acting up if you roll a 1 before the battle. Just replace the 'miss the battle' with 'start game with a FW'.
 

Azzabat

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I'd prefer it not to be a blanket stat modifier as the original form of the injury more often than not doesn't have any effect.
An item that mitigates the effects at some expense to stats seems the best route for me.
I agree with cardyfreak. I like the idea that although it only flares up 1 in 6 chances ... it's a biggie when it does. BUT you have the chance to mitigate it by buying a piece of Tech (like a Lobo-chip), with the side effects that go along with surgery in the Underhive.

Do you take the removal of the injury for the reduction in stats ... or do you stay at full stats, but risk missing the battle totally. (80% of something or the possibility of 100% of nothing?)

"Do you feel lucky (cyber)punk? Well ... Do you?"
 
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