N18 New Player: Help me avoid Escher pitfalls

[Crab Verde]

So with the release of House of Blades I've decided I want to start playing with Escher.

I currently have:
1 x Standard Escher gang box
1 x Death-maidens and Wyld Runners box

I'm looking to start building asap but I have some apprehension about what to physically build. I've been doing my best to browse similar threads to see what options are sub-par, both mechanically and fun-wise, but with the HoB only just coming out, I feel that some information may be out dated.

So my questions are as such:
- What weapon options should I avoid?
- What should I have multiples of?
- What is a good general use build for a Leader?
- What makes a good Escher Champion?
- Am I over thinking the importance of WYSIWYG?
- Does any of this matter since equipment changes during campaigns?

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

There's a lot of personal preference in this stuff.
But I'll address your points with my own opinions and preferences.

- In the new HoB, I'd avoid the Wyldrunner's bow and whip. They're pretty useless and very overpriced.
I *would* have said avoid the chemthrower, but with the new gas-chems it's not entirely useless anymore. It's something I'd consider, but probably for a later campaign build, and only if you have a chymist to enable a steady supple of chems.
I would also have avoid to the needle pistol. But again, with toxin-chems they get a new lease of life and it seems they've been buffed to +2 at short range, which is a big help.

- You'll definitely have multiples of lasgun gals. Get these hotshot packs, although not necessarily at gang creation (although it's a tempting option now).
That's probably all tbh at the moment. There's enough cool special loadouts to have a large number of totally unique champions/specialists. Alas, HoB greatly restricted the number of gangers that can take needle rifles.

- I run mine with an autopistol and stiletto sword initially, getting a plasma pistol later. I use her primarily for Overseer (although this is a controversial skill because it's so good). I'm considering a needle rifle though in lieu of the plasma pistol. But if you're using Overseer you want to keep her cheapish, but she's got a potent statline you don't want to waste on crappy gear.

- Generally speaking, champions and your leader have good enough stats to make pretty much any build viable.
I like to run one close range, but you could double up.
Short range for me is (normally pistol+ccw) or akimbo (two pistols+ccw), they'll be Death Maidens now. You could use a needle rifle or something as well (obviously as a Matriach).
For long range there's so many options. Grenade launchers (getting gas later) is a good option, plasma guns are be good, combi-bolters or regular bolters, and there's obviously the plasma cannon now. Really the world is our oyster.

- Personally I have the major weapons modelled and the rest I don't really sweat either way. Things like plasma pistols should be modelled, but an autopistol isn't necessary unless it's the fighter's primary weapon.
My rule is if you're be annoyed if someone said "oh, by the way my fighter has [Blank]", Blank should be modelled.

- You can't change weapons during a campaign, only add new ones to existing fighters and add new fighters.
But things to consider in campaigns is that later on you'd want hotshot packs on all your lasgirls, things like sights on your fancier weapons, and just adding more fighters.

 

[Crab Verde]

Thanks for such a detailed reply! Really helped put me in the right direction. I took everything in to consideration and this is the 1000 credit list I came up with:

Medusa (Leader) 240
- Skill: Overseer
- Plasma Pistol
- Stiletto Sword
- Lasgun
- Chem-synth
- Mesh Armour

Euryale (Death-Maiden) 200
- Skill: Dodge
- Venom Claw
- Needle Pistol
- Chem-synth
- Mesh Armour

Stheno (Champion) 165
- Skill: Spring Up
- Needle Rifle
- Chem-synth
- Mesh Armour

4 x Gangers (Campe, Delphyne, Echidna, Lamia) 220
- Lasgun
- Flak Armour

Sybaris (Ganger Specialist) 85
- Needle Rifle
- Flak Armour

2 x Juves (Scylla, Nagini) 90
- Stub Gun
- Stiletto Knife

1000/1000 Credits

Critiques welcome. Any issues or thoughts?

 

[Anon052]

First you did count the costs for the Specialist and the Gangers wrong. The Gangers now cost 260 and the Specialist 95.

I don't know why you did take overseer because there is not really a weapon or another model in your gang where you would use it effectively apart from using it on the Deathmaiden to reach cc faster. Needle Rifles are short range so you would have to move your Queen near the enemy gang making her an easy target. And they have bad ammo roll which makes a high number of shots pretty risky.

And I would have chosen other skills on the champion and death maiden. Spring up would have been better on the maiden. I do like some finesse skills so there are a lot of very good skill options for her.

I don't see an overarching plan on how to use this gang effectively. I don't think this gang would last in an campaign.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

Looks like a strong start, no real shooting over 18" though, might be an issue if you play Sector Mechanicus though.
I would be inclined to drop the chemsynths from the Leader and Death Maiden initially to take some grenades on the gangers, smoke and photon flashes are my faves.

I also wouldn't bother with flak armour - 10cr for a 6+ save isn't worth it. If you're buying armour, definitely go the extra 5 credits for mesh, it's worth it. That'll save you a fair few credits more. You already have a needle rifle, perhaps take a grenade launcher or bolter on the champion for some more range?

I'd also recommend you have a think about why your leader has a lasgun, and what she wants to do with it.
Is it for taking potshots at range? At range is she better off doing that, or ordering her sister to do that with Overseer? Or is she better trying to close the distance to use your substantially better gear?
Is it for when she runs out of ammo on her plasma pistol? If she's already close enough to be using the pistol, would an autopistol or something be better? That'll tandem with her sword as well for when she continues charging people.
Fighters only get three weapon slots, and you need to use them well.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

First you did count the costs for the Specialist and the Gangers wrong. The Gangers now cost 260 and the Specialist 95.

I don't know why you did take overseer because there is not really a weapon or another model in your gang where you would use it effectively apart from using it on the Deathmaiden to reach cc faster. Needle Rifles are short range so you would have to move your Queen near the enemy gang making her an easy target. And they have bad ammo roll which makes a high number of shots pretty risky.

And I would have chosen other skills on the champion and death maiden. Spring up would have been better on the maiden. I do like some finesse skills so there are a lot of very good skill options for her.

I don't see an overarching plan on how to use this gang effectively. I don't think this gang would last in an campaign.

Using Overseer to give a fighter another move activation is a big deal, that's pretty much all I ever use Overseer for. Slingshot your Death Maiden into the enemy lines and decapitate their leader or a critical champion.

I do agree about Spring Up on the Death Maiden, it helps a lot.

 

[kueppe]

I would skip the armor on the gangers and if u buy armo later than mesh. Flak is a bit... especially for the price. As specialist a granadelauncher can of u some templates / board control. Personally I like to keep my leader out of harm and only use it for counter charges. I will test an bolter + chain axe setup. Spring up or something else would be far better on the death maiden. Dodge is not rly helping (if u need it a 6+ won't safe u). The champ could need a stiletto sword later on. If u want some variety, u can take a shotgun ganger and buy acid later. If points are missing, I would ditch a juve.

 

[Anon052]

Using Overseer to give a fighter another move activation is a big deal, that's pretty much all I ever use Overseer for. Slingshot your Death Maiden into the enemy lines and decapitate their leader or a critical champion.

I do agree about Spring Up on the Death Maiden, it helps a lot.

Yes I know how effective this can be. But in this gang there is no support for the Daithmaiden. Perhaps she could succeed in taking out an important enemy but after that the Maiden is dead because she is isolated in enemy territory. I played against some Escher gangs in campaigns that did use this specific tactic. The Escher champions who used this were usually dead or crippled fast if unsurported and if the enemy gangs know this tactic is coming they can do lot of things to counter it and it will fail a lot without doing any damage.

 

[Crab Verde]

Thanks for all the feed back! I'll revise the list and post it here when I can.

First you did count the costs for the Specialist and the Gangers wrong.

I also wouldn't bother with flak armour - 10cr for a 6+ save isn't worth it.

I would skip the armor on the gangers

My bad. Reading from the PDF and the Yaktribe builder, I got the impression that flak armour was included in the base cost.

I don't know why you did take overseer
And I would have chosen other skills on the champion and death maiden.

I haven't played a game yet and skills are an area I'm not sure about. I see your points though.

I would be inclined to drop the chemsynths from the Leader and Death Maiden initially to take some grenades on the gangers, smoke and photon flashes are my faves.

Noted! I'm pleased to hear that as grenades seem like fun.

I'd also recommend you have a think about why your leader has a lasgun, and what she wants to do with it.
Fighters only get three weapon slots, and you need to use them well.

I had 5 credits to spare so my thought process was that it's a cheap investment for a bit of versatility, could set up for the death-maiden by pinning a target, and is cheap back up. I'm not married to the idea though so I'll happily drop it.

With regards to weapon slots, I'm under the impression that you can put extra weapons into your stash and change them out between games. So the thought was that I could have a lasgun until I bought another weapon, stash it and maybe give it to a replacement fighter later down the line. How wrong am I about that?

 

[Unslain]

Thanks for all the feed back! I'll revise the list and post it here when I can.

My bad. Reading from the PDF and the Yaktribe builder, I got the impression that flak armour was included in the base cost.

The builder is not updated to cover House of Blades (or Chains) and won't be for a fair while, due to Malo not having the time yet.

I had 5 credits to spare so my thought process was that it's a cheap investment for a bit of versatility, could set up for the death-maiden by pinning a target, and is cheap back up. I'm not married to the idea though so I'll happily drop it.

With regards to weapon slots, I'm under the impression that you can put extra weapons into your stash and change them out between games. So the thought was that I could have a lasgun until I bought another weapon, stash it and maybe give it to a replacement fighter later down the line. How wrong am I about that?

"No fighter may discard a weapon." This is written in the New Equipment section (2nd bullet point), ahead of the actual fighter entries. Or it is in 'Chains at least, as I don't have my copy of 'Blades yet.

Leaders, Champions, Prospects and Ganger Specialists can have more than three weapons each by having more than one fighter card (Tools of the Trade rule). They are permitted to swap out Wargear, but that term covers everything that isn't a weapon (though thrown grenades are wargear).

The thing with giving your leader the lasgun is that to get a better weapon will mean making a second card for her, and when you have a scenario that gives you random fighters then you first randomise which of Medusa's cards go into the deck to draw fighters from. So you might have one version of her with something expensive, but there's always a chance she'll bring that lasgun along for a fight whether you want her to or not.
So better in my opinion to leave the third weapon until you know what you want, and can be sure she'll bring it along every time.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

RAW you can never remove a weapon from a fighter, once they have it they're stuck with it. (although some groups don't like this rule and houserule it away)
You could give your leader a new equipment set without the lasgun though, but you'd risk bringing the lasgun anyway in a random selection scenario.
If you have 5-10cr spare at the end, I'd rather just keep it aside rather than buy something you might regret later. Although your specialist might like a lasgun as a backup.

You weren't wrong to assume fighters started with armour - this used to be the case before HoB. The reason the PDF and Yaktribe show them as starting with armour is because they haven't been updated with the new content yet.

 

[Crab Verde]

So here's the revised list. I've tried to incorporate more 18"+ shooting, shifted my leader to a ranged role, changed skills and gave the gangers grenades. I feel the Death-maiden is best suited to intercepting melee threats in this list, rather than being a melee assassin. I'm also pretty hung up on what skill to give my leader. I see the power of Overseer but giving up a turn of shooting hurts. I don't know what to do with the remaining 5 credits.

Thanks to everyone for sticking with me so far!

Medusa (Leader) 250
- Skill: Overseer/Inspirational
- Combi Bolter/Needler
- Stiletto Sword
- Mesh Armour

Euryale (Death-Maiden) 185
- Skill: Spring Up
- Venom Claw
- Needle Pistol
- Mesh Armour

Stheno (Champion) 200
- Skill: Spring Up
- Grenade Launcher
- Stiletto Sword
- Mesh Armour

2 x Gangers (Campe, Delphyne) 140
- Lasgun
- Smoke Grenade

2 x Gangers (Echidna, Lamia) 140
- Lasgun
- Photon Flash Grenade

Sybaris (Ganger Specialist) 80
- Shotgun

995/1000 Credits

 

[Deckard_2049]

Yes I know how effective this can be. But in this gang there is no support for the Daithmaiden. Perhaps she could succeed in taking out an important enemy but after that the Maiden is dead because she is isolated in enemy territory. I played against some Escher gangs in campaigns that did use this specific tactic. The Escher champions who used this were usually dead or crippled fast if unsurported and if the enemy gangs know this tactic is coming they can do lot of things to counter it and it will fail a lot without doing any damage.

Yeah it seems she would be too vulnerable after getting into the muck like that. I'm thinking about taking a single death maiden and using her for counter charge, just keep her back and take pot shots with maybe a plasma pistol and a sword (and then maybe get a second sword/knife later). And hopefully make anyone think twice before getting too close.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

You've not got a specialist, which is a waste really.
Even if you can't fit another special weapon in initially, designate one of the lasgals as a specialist so you can give them a special weapon later.

I use my leader as the counter charger, overseering at other times.

I recommend trying to get some skirmish games to see what you like, what you don't like, and how you play.

 

[Crab Verde]

You've not got a specialist, which is a waste really.

Brain glitched and I thought a shotgun was a special weapon for some reason. I could swap out the shotgun for a needle rifle and that would take me to 1000 credits exactly.

I'll have a mess around with some thought experiments before I commit to building anything (as hard as that may be)

 

[LeakingGreyMatter]

So here's the revised list. I've tried to incorporate more 18"+ shooting, shifted my leader to a ranged role, changed skills and gave the gangers grenades. I feel the Death-maiden is best suited to intercepting melee threats in this list, rather than being a melee assassin. I'm also pretty hung up on what skill to give my leader. I see the power of Overseer but giving up a turn of shooting hurts. I don't know what to do with the remaining 5 credits.

Thanks to everyone for sticking with me so far!

Medusa (Leader) 250
- Skill: Overseer/Inspirational
- Combi Bolter/Needler
- Stiletto Sword
- Mesh Armour

Euryale (Death-Maiden) 185
- Skill: Spring Up
- Venom Claw
- Needle Pistol
- Mesh Armour

Stheno (Champion) 200
- Skill: Spring Up
- Grenade Launcher
- Stiletto Sword
- Mesh Armour

2 x Gangers (Campe, Delphyne) 140
- Lasgun
- Smoke Grenade

2 x Gangers (Echidna, Lamia) 140
- Lasgun
- Photon Flash Grenade

Sybaris (Ganger Specialist) 80
- Shotgun

995/1000 Credits

I think That’s a good starting list to work with.
I would add 1-2 more shotguns for flexibility, but that’s just my preference

 

[Crazyterran]

Could change the combi needler to a regular Boltgun and use the saved points to upgrade the shotgun to a second grenade launcher.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

Brain glitched and I thought a shotgun was a special weapon for some reason. I could swap out the shotgun for a needle rifle and that would take me to 1000 credits exactly.

I'll have a mess around with some thought experiments before I commit to building anything (as hard as that may be)

I like the idea of switching the shotgun for a needle rifle.
You could play some games with blue tacked weapons or something.

 

[kueppe]

I would move the GL to the specialist and use the needle on the champ. GL does not rly require the bs and u got the chem synth synergy on the champ. For the start u are a bit heavy on the grenades if u need some creds somewhere.

 

[Unslain]

As to building models, your lists so far use 7-9 models from the gang box (unless you were going to make the juves from wyld runners) so you have at least one spare there to play with, plus the rest of the new box. Any weapons combo built from the gang box will be useful later in a campaign, in my opinion - even the chem-thrower or shock whip. Chances are you will need more models as the gang advances anyway, and single sprues seem to be commonly available online for half the price of a gang box, so don't be too afraid to get building and having fun. Particularly when it's a toss-up between shotgun or needle rifle, building both is perfectly valid because you'll likely want to add the other in within a few games.

Tacking on arms is a good option, as @Kiro The Avenger points out and the joints work well for it.

@kueppe makes a good point about giving Stheno any needle rifle you go with. Sybaris having it means that they'll both want a chem-synth whereas one on Stheno will serve both sword and rifle, she has the better intelligence to use it, and the fairly short range of a needle rifle makes the sword very handy. Meanwhile Sybaris with the grenade launcher can stay behind a screen of lasgun sisters and reliably avoid firing with the short range penalty.