N18 New Player: Ideas for Escher and Delaque gangs

[Matthias404]

Hey all,

First post. Long time player of tabletop miniature games, but new to the current Necromunda.

I've got the main two-player box and happy to pick up extra for both Escher and Delaque, but I was wondering if the lists below were a good place to start for Campaign Play? But also, whether they felt fairly balanced against each other? I was trying not to spam skills. Feedback would be hugely appreciated. Thanks.


The Final Girls — Escher 1000pts

Queen — Mesh Armor, Laspistol, Plasma Pistol, Chainsword / Skills: Iron Will
Matriach — Mesh Armor, Stiletto Sword, Combi-Weapon (Bolter/Needler) / Skills: Step Aside
Death Maiden — Mesh Armor, Needle Pistol, Venom Claw / Skills: Spring Up
Sister (Specialist) — Stub Gun, Needle Rifle
Sister — Stiletto Knife, Lasgun
Sister — Stiletto Knife, Lasgun
Little Sister — Stiletto Knife, Stub Gun
Little Sister — Laspistol x2
Little Sister — Stub Gun, Photon Flash Grenade

I've tried to make the Queen, Death Maiden, and one of the Little Sisters good as chargers; while the Matriach and Sisters with Stiletto Knives are good counter-chargers, or good for receiving chargers (if they survive). The Needle Rifle with -2 AP seemed a great and cheap choice for the Sister (Specialist), and the other two Little Sisters give some utility and will hopefully grow into their weapons choices.


The Shadow Watch — Delaque 1000pts

Master of Shadow — Mesh Armor, Long Rifle, Web Gauntlet / Skills: Iron Will
Phantom Psyker — Mesh Armor, Shock Stave / Skills: Psi-touched, Spatial Psychosis
Phantom — Mesh Armor, Web Pistol, Web Gauntlet / Skills: Faceless
Nacht-Ghul — Mesh Armor, Serpent's Fangs* / Skills: Spring up
Ghost (Specialist) — Long Rifle
Ghost — Lasgun
Ghost — Autopistol x2
Shadow — Autopistol
Shadow — Autopistol

I didn't want to go over the top with psychic powers, instead going for only the Phantom Psyker — Psi-touched and Spatial Psychosis seem great for controlling the board! The Master of Shadows can hang back and use their Long Rifle, while the Web Gauntlet makes them dangerous if charged. I was tempted to give them Overwatch, but it seems better to have them Group Activate with the Ghosts? The Phantom with Web Pistol seems good to me with Faceless; Infiltrate was very tempting, but I think keeping them close to the others will help them with running in and taking out webbed folks, while Faceless mitigates them being targeted. The Nacht-Ghul... is a Nacht-Ghul and seems incredibly good! The Ghosts and Shadows I kept cheap as possible, with the intention of kitting them out as the campaign goes on.


As I said, new to this, and any feedback and thoughts hugely appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Psyan]

Hello and welcome to the game and the forums!

Regarding the Escher: In general, you have too many spare weapons in the gang. Back ups are nice to have later in a campaign, but not a good use of credits at the start. If you ditch those, you can probably afford some better equipment for your fighters, or maybe an extra body.
THe Queen is good both up close and at range, but I'd advise picking one focus to start and then adding gear for the other later in the campaign. So, you either start with a Boltgun or Plasma Gun, or you start with a Plasma Pistol and Power Sword. The Chainsword is ok, but the Power Sword is considerably better. Ditch the spare Laspistol, as it pointlessly takes up your third weapon (and final) slot.
Matriarchs should be geared as shooters, equipped with a strong 24" weapon. I'd suggest giving her a Grenade Launcher and nothing else to start. Add a good pistol, a cc weapon and smoke ammo (for easy reloads) later.
Your Death Maiden is good, though some people prefer a Stiletto Sword to the Venom Claw. I would suggest giving her (and any other high value fighter who relies on Toxin) a Chem-Synth.
If your Specialist is using the Needle Rifle, give her a Chem-Synth, too. Ditch the Stubgun for now. The alternate take on this fighter is to give her a Grenade Launcher, which costs about the same as the Needle Rifle and Chem-Synth.
Drop the Stiletto Knives from the Sisters; they're there to pin with their cheap Lasguns and that's it. If you have the credits and inclination to make one of them a killer, give her a shotgun and then later in the campaign get her Acid ammo.
Little Sisters should get a Stub Pistol or a Las Pistol to start. They don't "need" anything else, though the Stiletto Knife and Photon Flash Grenades are decent add ons if you have a few credits left over, but not enough for an extra Little Sister with a Stub Gun.

 

[Matthias404]

Thank you, @Psyan. That's really good advice all round. Armour and Chem-Synth were the first upgrades I had in mind, but I can see how dropping the additional weapons can let me grab better gear from the start such as the Power Sword and Chem-Synth.

On the subject of Chainswords vs. Power Swords, I was valuing the +1 to hit of the former over the Power trait of the latter, but I guess with 3A, 4A on the charge, the need to be hitting on 2+ compared with 3+ is kinda moot for the Queen.

I do like the look of the Photon Flash Grenades; having a Juve go first in a group activation, move up and throw, followed by one of the more melee orientated sisters seems golden.

Lots to think on and mull over. Thanks.

 

[Heart of Storm]

It's 5A on the charge with a gang queen since you get a bonus attack for having two melee weapons (the extra attack being with the plasma pistols profile) - i know people don't like risking their leaders up front but using the Queen as anything other than a melee beat stick is a waste of her profile.

She does however need Spring Up, unless you're willing to switch her melee weapon for something with the Versatile trait.

Ranged weapon choice with the Escher is fine but I'll second Psyans points about backup melee, the sisters and the matriarch don't need those stiletto weapons and the cash saved there should let you upgrade one of those little sisters, ideally into a full sister with a shotgun - I'd probably drop the dual las pistol little sister if I was choosing one, her 5+ BS means she's going to be twin guns blazing into a lot of walls.

For the Delaque, same advice applies, web gauntlets are very cool but if your enemy is tagging your backline gang leader in melee something has gone horribly wrong with your game plan. 3 champions in a line up is a really strong starting point for campaign play but does come at the cost of some of equipment so you need to be efficient.

Delaque juves aren't as good as Escher juves in combat, but they are fast, I like giving them web pistols when I can as that 6" move of theirs makes them extra intimidating and template weapons get to ignore their otherwise terrible 5+ BS.

 

[Matthias404]

Thanks, @Heart of Storm. That's great.

Yep! 5A on the charge with a pistol for the Queen. I wasn't being very clear; it was 4A with the Chainsword or Powersword I was talking about, then a pistol alongside it.

Completely get what you all mean about the backup melee weapons; I do have a tendency to plan for all scenarios, in case my front line goes down or if I need to be more aggressive with everyone — but the argument to remove the stiletto weapons from the Matriarch and Sisters and get another Sister with Shotgun is sound.

I do like the dual Laspistols, but with moving points around dropping the stiletto weapons, I think I can probably get the same on a Sister rather than a Little Sister.

And thanks for the advice on the Delaque. Again, I can see the wisdom in it, same as the Escher, to be more efficient with points and focused on roles in builds.

Cheers, definitely lots to mull on.

 

[HugeSamples]

A good way to look at list building is:
Everyone gets ONE weapon for ONE role, then if you have extra points after you have 8+ models you can think about giving people "backup/multi-role weapons".

 

[Psyan]

I tend to like giving the Queen a long gun (usually a Boltgun) to start and then equipping her with a Shock Whip and Plasma Pistol. That Shock Whip both extends her charge range and allows her to avoid getting into base to base, giving her a little extra survivability.

 

[Kross]

I tend to like giving the Queen a long gun (usually a Boltgun) to start and then equipping her with a Shock Whip and Plasma Pistol. That Shock Whip both extends her charge range and allows her to avoid getting into base to base, giving her a little extra survivability.

You can use the pistol when in versatile range of the whip?

 

[Psyan]

Unfortunately, no... but it's still four attacks on the charge.

 

[Matthias404]

Yeah, I keep looking at the Shock Whip, @Psyan. The versatile trait feels very strong. But I didn't like the -1 to hit with it, if you're then charged, but I guess it is very easy for Escher to dance out of combat if that happens.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

You can use the pistol when in versatile range of the whip?

You can use a Fight (basic) action to whip them and a Shoot (basic) one to shoot them with the plasma pistol with both your actions. (Or the other way round).
You sacrifice moving that turn but being that close you are definitely within your pistols short range with it's 2+ accuracy bonus.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Completely get what you all mean about the backup melee weapons; I do have a tendency to plan for all scenarios, in case my front line goes down or if I need to be more aggressive with everyone — but the argument to remove the stiletto weapons from the Matriarch and Sisters and get another Sister with Shotgun is sound.

1000 credits does not stretch as far as you would think. It may be tempting to cover both bases of Melee and ranged on all your fighters but that swiftly adds up and you end up with too few fighters.

It is tricky with both delaque and Esher in that regard. They have access to both good and comparatively cheap ranged weapons (auto pistols las gun etc) which are perfectly serviceable to start and a solid collection of melee options at relatively low prices and your fighters are equally good with both so you would think "why not". It does start to add up though.

As you progress you can add back ups. You can plan for all scenarios but do it as a gang not individuals. Have the melee fighter but have a ranged fighter to cover them.

For your ranged fighters with no melee weapon have a look at the unarmed attack rules and think objectively.

(Assume it's your basic ganger and ignore armour bloat which happens later on when you can get better weapons later)

Everyone can attack with thier base Attacks with unarmed attacks.
If you get stuck in melee you can still kick them in the face. It's no thunder hammer but at least it's something.

Your 4+ weapon skill gets you a hit half the time. Half a cake still has cake in it.

It's resolved at your strength (3). The average fighters toughness is 3 so that's another 4+ to wound. Again not woeful.

Taken together you basically have a 1/4 chance of wounding. Ok it's fairly meh but you notice if you get taxed 25% it's still a thing. Especially if many fighters also have it
To start off your ranged fighters will have enough to make a small dent in melee to get by against gangers and juves.
Back ups are for later (or you get the "cursed" shotgun that you never seem to be able to hit anything with it and it jams all the time in spite of basic d6 probability...)

 

[Psyan]

Yeah, I keep looking at the Shock Whip, @Psyan. The versatile trait feels very strong. But I didn't like the -1 to hit with it, if you're then charged, but I guess it is very easy for Escher to dance out of combat if that happens.

If, as an Escher Queen, you frequently get charged, you may want to work on your play style. You have a good M and you should have a fair number of less expensive fighters to stand between you and the enemy.
With the Shock Whip, you're best off charging fighters who are already engaged, or who have already completed their actions for the round (like OOAing the poor Juve you sent out to serve as a speed bump). You are essentially counter-charging.

 

[Matthias404]

Thanks, @Lunarcruiser. That's a great way of looking at it — half a cake, still has cake in it!

It was the Toxin trait especially that I liked, the ability to wound many foes on a 3+ and ignore the amount of Wounds they have. A backup Sister, charging in with a Stiletto knife is two 50% chances to land a blow, each of which then becomes a 66% chance (against T3) of becoming an Injury roll. That seemed very good for the price of a knife, given how cheap a Lasgun is.

But I can see the benefits of cost saving and role specialising.

 

[Matthias404]

If, as an Escher Queen, you frequently get charged, you may want to work on your play style. You have a good M and you should have a fair number of less expensive fighters to stand between you and the enemy.
With the Shock Whip, you're best off charging fighters who are already engaged, or who have already completed their actions for the round (like OOAing the poor Juve you sent out to serve as a speed bump). You are essentially counter-charging.

Cheers, @Psyan. Yeah, that follows.

 

[Matthias404]

Thanks for all of the advice on the Escher. After much mulling, I've settled on the following:

Final Girls — 1000pts (link)
Queen — Chainaxe, Plasma Pistol, Mesh Armour (Dodge)
Matriarch — Boltgun, Chainsword, Mesh Armour (Step Aside)
Deathmaiden — Shock Whip, Throwing Knives, Venom Claw, Mesh Armour (Spring Up)
Sister (Specialist) — Needle Rifle, Stub Gun, Mesh
Sister — Lasgun, Stiletto Knife
Sister — Laspistol (x2)
Sister — Lasgun
Little Sister — Stiletto Knife, Stub Gun
Little Sister — Laspistol, Photon Flash Grenade

I wanted a variety, both in skills and how they're equipped, so the modelling options are varied and I'm not spamming the same loadout.

My final debate is dropping the Mesh Armour on the Specialist to swap the Queen's Chainaxe for a Power Sword, but honestly both seem good options.

For close combat: the Queen, is intended to be aggressive, getting into short range and close quarters, the same with the Death Maiden. I realise the Shock Whip on the latter seems odd, but I felt that one melee weapon with the Toxin trait was enough, while the Versatile range of the Shock Whip gives them a threat range of 10" to 12" with just the whip and 7" to 9" with both weapons. I do realise that they can gain Combat Virtuoso, but that isn't guaranteed unless you spend a fair chunk of Experience.

For ranged combat: The Matriarch can sit back and group activate others, while plugging folk with their Boltgun. If they're charged, between Step Aside and Parry, hopefully they'll get chance to swing back... or they can charge themselves if anyone gets too close. I was very tempted to give the Sister (Specialist) a Plasma Gun, but I like the idea of the Needle Rifle and the points just didn't work for the big gun—I'd likely have to drop a Sister or Little Sister, or have a lot less variety. The Needle Rifle seems very accurate at short range too, -2 AP seems great on a cheap rifle, plus the ability to add Toxic Ammo, such as "Paralysing", is interesting.

The other Sisters are kitted out for variety, the Stiletto Knife gives some counter-punch if folk get too close, while the twin Laspistols simply feels cool—in a campaign, I'd eventually change one or both to a Hotshot Laspistol. The +1 to hit at 8" short range when using Twin Guns Blazing feels alright to me too.

The Little Sisters are similarly kitted out for variety. I especially like the idea of the Photon Flash Grenade as part of a Group Activation, the Little Sister running in and blinding the room for her gang mates.

Anyway, thanks again for all the feedback. It helped me get to this point and focus on what I wanted out of a gang: variety, both in modelling opportunities and how each ganger plays.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

the Death Maiden. I realise the Shock Whip on the latter seems odd, but I felt that one melee weapon with the Toxin trait was enough, while the Versatile range of the Shock Whip gives them a threat range of 10" to 12" with just the whip and 7" to 9" with both weapons. I do realise that they can gain Combat Virtuoso, but that isn't guaranteed unless you spend a fair chunk of Experience.

Its 6"-9" with the Whip (6"Move Plus 3" Versatile),+1"-3" on a charge (that gives a max of 7"-12") and 12"-18" with the knives (6"Movement and 3S*2Short -3S*4 Long) but it is a Basic weapon so can not be used in a charge outsite extra action mechanics like Overseer.
the Venom claw is 6" or 7"-9" on a Charge.
(When you said both did you just mean the claw and whip?).
Personally I would go for a Pistol over the Knives even if it is a later purchase. Lets discount the Death maiden moving for the moment, is can be advantagous to shoot and then move for example. If you are maximinsing Venom Blood toxin fun the maiden has access to the needle pistol. it has a range of 4"-9" with a accuracy bonus to 4". The Knives have 3S*2 (6") Short and 3S*4 (12") Long but at accuracy penalty from 6"-12". Throw in some cover and it can be tricky to hit with a short ranged weapon with a accuracy penalty. You should be constantly moving with Death maidens so Aim and various sights are not that useful (How do you add sights to knives anyway?...).
In addition as it is Strength based the Knives can lose range over time due to injuries. with one Enfeebled (or what ever the injury is) your murder tornado is S2. That gives the knives a range of 4"-8" with that accuracy penalty. The Pistol remains the same regardless of Strength.
Your Death maiden really has better things to do with her advances than Strength especially if you are using Toxin which does not need it. (Movement, More Attacks, More Skills etc) and Bionics are Rare and expensive.
The Pistol also has Side arm which can grant an extra attack in Melee which the knives don't. If you are using Chemalchemy you can apply the Toxin ammo to both the Claw and Pistol in one battle giving you 4 attacks a round (+1 more on Charge) with the Venom Claw and Pistol with your special ammo. If you are using the whip and claw you only gain at most 2 toxin attacks 3 on a charge as you must split your attacks between the two melee weapons.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

I do realise that they can gain Combat Virtuoso, but that isn't guaranteed unless you spend a fair chunk of Experience.

To be honest Murder Tornadoes have no problem racking up Experience. Especially if you use them to run aroung hoovering up poor unsuspecting Juves...
You can easily get to 9XP in a couple of games to chose the skill.
(Your Death Maiden weapons don't benefit from Combat Virtuoso anyway)

 

[Matthias404]

Its 6"-9" with the Whip (6"Move Plus 3" Versatile),+1"-3" on a charge (that gives a max of 7"-12") and 12"-18" with the knives (6"Movement and 3S*2Short -3S*4 Long) but it is a Basic weapon so can not be used in a charge outsite extra action mechanics like Overseer.
the Venom claw is 6" or 7"-9" on a Charge.
(When you said both did you just mean the claw and whip?).
Personally I would go for a Pistol over the Knives even if it is a later purchase. Lets discount the Death maiden moving for the moment, is can be advantagous to shoot and then move for example. If you are maximinsing Venom Blood toxin fun the maiden has access to the needle pistol. it has a range of 4"-9" with a accuracy bonus to 4". The Knives have 3S*2 (6") Short and 3S*4 (12") Long but at accuracy penalty from 6"-12". Throw in some cover and it can be tricky to hit with a short ranged weapon with a accuracy penalty. You should be constantly moving with Death maidens so Aim and various sights are not that useful (How do you add sights to knives anyway?...).
In addition as it is Strength based the Knives can lose range over time due to injuries. with one Enfeebled (or what ever the injury is) your murder tornado is S2. That gives the knives a range of 4"-8" with that accuracy penalty. The Pistol remains the same regardless of Strength.
Your Death maiden really has better things to do with her advances than Strength especially if you are using Toxin which does not need it. (Movement, More Attacks, More Skills etc) and Bionics are Rare and expensive.
The Pistol also has Side arm which can grant an extra attack in Melee which the knives don't. If you are using Chemalchemy you can apply the Toxin ammo to both the Claw and Pistol in one battle giving you 4 attacks a round (+1 more on Charge) with the Venom Claw and Pistol with your special ammo. If you are using the whip and claw you only gain at most 2 toxin attacks 3 on a charge as you must split your attacks between the two melee weapons.

Thanks, @Lunarcruiser, that all makes a lot of sense.

Our workings out are the same with the threat range of the melee weapons; I should have been clearer, I was talking about charging with the Whip only (10" to 12") and then charging with the Whip and the Claw (7" to 9").

The Throwing Knives are a lot cheaper than the Needle Pistol, so seemed a good compromise to begin a campaign equipped with. I agree with you about the -1 and getting worse with certain injuries, but they have a better range and ammo check to balance that out. Also, given the Deathmaiden has Tools of the Trade, buying the pistol later—if needed—is still an option on the table.

I'll have to split the attacks between the the Venom Clam (2 attacks or 3 on the charge) and Shock Whip (2 attacks), but I'm okay with that—I know going all in on Toxin is the optimal way, but I'm valuing the Versatile reach of the Whip, on day one, higher than 5 Toxin attacks on the charge. That is more than likely the wrong call, but against most Gangers and Juves, especially in the early Campaign, being able to reach out (10" to 12") and subject them to 4 attacks at S4 from the Whip on the charge (the Venom Claw being out of melee range) is still likely to drop them.

 

[Matthias404]

To be honest Murder Tornadoes have no problem racking up Experience. Especially if you use them to run aroung hoovering up poor unsuspecting Juves...
You can easily get to 9XP in a couple of games to chose the skill.
(Your Death Maiden weapons don't benefit from Combat Virtuoso anyway)

That's a very good point, @Lunarcruiser. Hmm...

I choose weapons that didn't benefit from Combat Virtuoso, because I'm planning to take the Shock Whip (gaining Versatile) and valued the -2 AP of the Venom Claw, over the -1 AP and Parry of the Stiletto Sword. I could take Combat Virtuoso as the starting skill, but Spring Up seems the best skill a Deathmaiden can take to always make them a threat.

I guess, in short, I'm going for immediate gain and flexibility with the Deathmaiden over planned progression. Going this path means I can concentrate on the other Finesse skills: for example, Hit & Run, when combined with the Shock Whip seems great as the next skill to aim for.