N18 New Player: Ideas for Escher and Delaque gangs

[Matthias404]

Thanks for all the advice, @Lunarcruiser.

I've rejigged a few things in the list here: Final Girls — 1000pts (link)

TL;DR: I went with your sage advice about the Needle Pistol. Dropping some Mesh Armour on the Specialist and changing a Laspistol to a Stub Gun on one of the Little Sisters, has enabled the Death Maiden to have the best of all worlds—namely, a Needle Pistol, Shock Whip, and Venom Claw. Base to Base Melee is now 5 Toxin attacks, and the Shock Whip allows 4 Versatile attacks at the extended charge range. This seems a bargain for 210pts!

Cheers for all the great feedback.

 

[Matthias404]

Thanks for all the help with the Escher. I think I have settled on what to do with the Delaque too...

Shadow Watch — 1000pts (link)
Master of Shadow — Web Gauntlet, Plasma Gun, Mesh Armour (Overwatch)
Phantom Psyker — Shock Stave, Web Pistol, Mesh Armour (Faceless & Unrememberable Utterance)
Nacht-Ghul — Serpent's Fangs, Autopistol, Mesh Armour (Spring Up)
Ghost Specialist — Long Rifle
Ghost — Shotgun
Ghost — Lasgun
Shadow — Laspistol
Shadow — Stub Gun x2
Shadow — Autopistol

Again, I've tried to go for a range of weapons and abilities, not spam loadouts, to give me a range of modelling options and variety in play.

The Master of Shadow is intended to sit back and provide threat and control by overwatching with the Plasma Gun, while the Web Gauntlet enables them to hit back if charged or charge in to support the front line.

The Phantom Psyker provides more control with Unrememberable Utterance—preventing double actions within 3" protects them from charges, while letting them charge or walk up close and attack with either the Shock Stave or Web Pistol. As the Web Pistol also pins, anyone that is hit within that 3" utterance bubble is very limited in their actions (Stand Up or Reload!). The Phantom Psyker will also be shepherding one or two of the Shadows, setting up potential coup de graces. There are a lot of powerful Psychoteric Whispers, Sight Blight is also very tempting on this model, but I like the Madness powers for controlling and breaking the enemy, especially with this build—I'd completely rework their gear (and the gang probably) if going Spatial Psychosis, for example.

The Nacht-Ghul is... well, a Nacht-Ghul. I originally thought about taking the sword, saving some points, but the Serpent's Fangs are just too good.

The Ghost Specialist I kept cheap with a Long Rifle, again providing some long range control/pinning and Knockback. The Ghost with the Shotgun gives some additional options with D2 and Knockback, while the Lasgun armed Ghost provides cheap and accurate control/pinning.

The Shadows are as cheap as possible, but with a variety of loadouts.

Any thoughts welcome and appreciated. Thanks.

 

[HugeSamples]

The Master of Shadow is intended to sit back and provide threat and control by overwatching with the Plasma Gun, while the Web Gauntlet enables them to hit back if charged or charge in to support the front line.

If someone is charging your leader then he's likely already dead and not going to get to fight back. If your leader is close enough to charge someone then you have already messed up .

The Phantom Psyker provides more control with Unrememberable Utterance—preventing double actions within 3" protects them from charges, while letting them charge or walk up close and attack with either the Shock Stave or Web Pistol. As the Web Pistol also pins, anyone that is hit within that 3" utterance bubble is very limited in their actions (Stand Up or Reload!). The Phantom Psyker will also be shepherding one or two of the Shadows, setting up potential coup de graces. There are a lot of powerful Psychoteric Whispers, Sight Blight is also very tempting on this model, but I like the Madness powers for controlling and breaking the enemy, especially with this build—I'd completely rework their gear (and the gang probably) if going Spatial Psychosis, for example.

Unrememberable Utterance is too short range to use without the wyrm IMO. If you're within 3" of an enemy then you need to ask yourself the question "why isn't that enemy dead?"

There really aren't a lot of "powerful" whispers (which is why many people don't bother with them). Don't get me wrong I like the whispers and I use them with a psi-gheist. But I have yet to make an effective psyker champion that didn't feel like a waste of credits. Bear in mind that any time your unsanctioned psykers go out of action your enemy gets a free D3x10 credits. Additionally, if said psyker gets captured, they can be sold immediately for full value with no chance at rescue.

Sight Blight isn't very good. It's not a smoke grenade. It is short range so the models effected by "pitch black" can likely just shoot you as if they weren't effected. It open up a book keeping nightmare of tracking which models are "revealed". This is another power that "needs the wyrm" to be effective, and even then it's not that effective.

Shadow — Stub Gun x2

Dual wielding on shadows at the start is a trap. The -1 to hit takes them to a 6+ to hit targets in the open, which is statistically less likely to hit than a single shot at 5+. The +2 to hit with stub guns at short range will turn this in your favor if you can get within 6".

See the chart below for the chances of at least one success in a pool of dice:

Pool	2+	3+	4+	5+	6+
1d6	83.3%	66.7%	50.0%	33.3%	16.7%
2d6	97.2%	88.9%	75.0%	55.6%	30.6%
3d6	99.5%	96.3%	87.5%	70.4%	42.1%

 

[Matthias404]

If someone is charging your leader then he's likely already dead and not going to get to fight back. If your leader is close enough to charge someone then you have already messed up .


Unrememberable Utterance is too short range to use without the wyrm IMO. If you're within 3" of an enemy then you need to ask yourself the question "why isn't that enemy dead?"

There really aren't a lot of "powerful" whispers (which is why many people don't bother with them). Don't get me wrong I like the whispers and I use them with a psi-gheist. But I have yet to make an effective psyker champion that didn't feel like a waste of credits. Bear in mind that any time your unsanctioned psykers go out of action your enemy gets a free D3x10 credits. Additionally, if said psyker gets captured, they can be sold immediately for full value with no chance at rescue.

Sight Blight isn't very good. It's not a smoke grenade. It is short range so the models effected by "pitch black" can likely just shoot you as if they weren't effected. It open up a book keeping nightmare of tracking which models are "revealed". This is another power that "needs the wyrm" to be effective, and even then it's not that effective.


Dual wielding on shadows at the start is a trap. The -1 to hit takes them to a 6+ to hit targets in the open, which is statistically less likely to hit than a single shot at 5+. The +2 to hit with stub guns at short range will turn this in your favor if you can get within 6".

See the chart below for the chances of at least one success in a pool of dice:

Pool	2+	3+	4+	5+	6+
1d6	83.3%	66.7%	50.0%	33.3%	16.7%
2d6	97.2%	88.9%	75.0%	55.6%	30.6%
3d6	99.5%	96.3%	87.5%	70.4%	42.1%

Thanks, @HugeSamples! That's a lot of useful advice.

You're right about the leader probably being dead if charged, but I do like the option of charging in from the second line—I know lurking at the back, in the shadows, is the Delaque-way, but having a leader more central seems prudent to me for Cool tests. Ideally, they'll never need to charge in themselves, but if it swings the balance...

With the Phantom Psyker and Unrememberable Utterance, is there not value in moving just outside 1" of a group of enemies and webbing them with this build? If the webbing takes, they're utterly locked in place and can't even crawl away (as it is a Double action). If the webbing fails, they're still Pinned with only 1 action (limiting them to either Stand Up or Reload)—even if they're not pinned (Nerves of Steel, Spring Up, etc), they still only have 1 action and therefore can't charge on their activation, while Faceless is a Willpower check for them to shoot the Phantom Psyker. That feels like a lot of protection for the Phantom Psyker when moving up with one or two Shadows (who also extend the range by 1" each).

That is a good point about the cost of the Phantom Psyker though and being sold at full cost. Hmmm... definitely something to mull on. And I see (no pun intended) what you mean about Sight Blight too!

Thanks for the handy table! The dual Stub Gun wielding Shadow seems fine to me. As you said, if you have a clear shot, when at long range, you take just one shot (33.33% hit chance) and at short range you take two (75% chance: after the -1 Twin Guns Blazing and +2 Stub Gun modifiers)—obviously, all of these calculations change with the target being in cover. To be honest, at long range with the Shadows, especially with targets in cover, you should probably just move them into better positions and cover themselves.

 

[HugeSamples]

With the Phantom Psyker and Unrememberable Utterance, is there not value in moving just outside 1" of a group of enemies and webbing them with this build? If the webbing takes, they're utterly locked in place and can't even crawl away (as it is a Double action). If the webbing fails, they're still Pinned with only 1 action (limiting them to either Stand Up or Reload)—even if they're not pinned (Nerves of Steel, Spring Up, etc), they still only have 1 action and therefore can't charge on their activation, while Faceless is a Willpower check for them to shoot the Phantom Psyker. That feels like a lot of protection for the Phantom Psyker when moving up with one or two Shadows (who also extend the range by 1" each).

If the stars align then yeah this is a thing that could happen.

Things to note:
- Faceless only works if you have a ready token (if you ran up to web, then you likely don't have a ready token).
- Having a "bubble of enemies" in web range, but also within a 3" radius of the webber is exceedingly rare (unless you opponent messes up bad). Realistically you'll get maybe 1 or 2 people in your combo (if you can pull it off at all).
- You're going to need to pre-cast the whisper and hope it doesn't fall off by the time you want to do your thing. (you're also risking perils constantly maintaining it).
- You're going to be out of position after this play, anyone not in your bubble is going to shoot you down or charge you.

It's just a lot of things to line up for the investment to be worth it IMO. Even when it is "worth it" you're still using a champion level model as a "grenade".

 

[Matthias404]

If the stars align then yeah this is a thing that could happen.

Things to note:
- Faceless only works if you have a ready token (if you ran up to web, then you likely don't have a ready token).
- Having a "bubble of enemies" in web range, but also within a 3" radius of the webber is exceedingly rare (unless you opponent messes up bad). Realistically you'll get maybe 1 or 2 people in your combo (if you can pull it off at all).
- You're going to need to pre-cast the whisper and hope it doesn't fall off by the time you want to do your thing. (you're also risking perils constantly maintaining it).
- You're going to be out of position after this play, anyone not in your bubble is going to shoot you down or charge you.

It's just a lot of things to line up for the investment to be worth it IMO. Even when it is "worth it" you're still using a champion level model as a "grenade".

That is very sage advice, @HugeSamples. You've convinced me...

I do like the Shock Stave and Web Pistol on the Phantom; I could just drop the Psyker aspect and invest the points elsewhere, perhaps? If I can find 5pts from somewhere else, drop Psyker on the Phantom, their Web Pistol could get an upgrade to a Web Gun?

 

[HugeSamples]

I do like the Shock Stave and Web Pistol on the Phantom; I could just drop the Psyker aspect and invest the points elsewhere, perhaps? If I can find 5pts from somewhere else, drop Psyker on the Phantom, their Web Pistol could get an upgrade to a Web Gun?

Depends what you're up against. If you have a lot of T4 opponents then the Web Gun upgrade is very much worth it.

You can drop one of the stubguns on the dual wielding juve to get the 5 points you need (get him that second pistol later).

Alternatively you can make a web pistol juve and do something else with your champ.

 

[paxmiles]

Been working on Delaque in an underhells campaign. Various realizations.

1) Juvs, due to bad BS/WS, excel when given shooting weapons that don't need to hit (templates) or the webgauntlet (because it's +1 to hit).
-If you get the Backstab skill, it stacks with the str bonus from backstab on the webgauntlet (str5 from behind)
2) Non-specialist Ghosts can take plasma pistols.
-Further, plasma pistols can be fitted with gunshrouds and/or Infrasights.
-A fighter doesn't need 2 pistols.
-You don't need to take the -1 to hit if you have 2 pistols, you can choose to only use one pistol.
3) The Plasma Gun IS a superior long rifle because it kills what it hits, instead of just knocking it back.
4) Psychic upgrade....should cost less.
-Psychic powers that don't kill can't earn you XP. Your fighter won't gain the XP they need to be useful or to counter injuries.
-Psykers get prioritised for death by the opponent.
-Non sanctioned psyker means they can sell you immediately if you get captured. So you have to take skinknife and escape artist on any valuable psyker. Extra dangerous if opponent is Delaque and has Take Down.
5) Psy-Gheists are overpriced. The psychomancer's harness is overpriced.
-I really want to like the psychomancer's harness and it just sucks for cost.
-If you do take one, get a pistol or throwing knives, you won't always want to be in melee.
6) The Cameleoline Cloak doesn't work with overwatch, since the cloak only functions if the fighter activates, which they don't do if they overwatch.

 

[Orpheus88]

This isnt Escher specific but imo theres a "path" that a gang loadout starts with and can follow as it develops and it centers around ammo.

If you give everyone lasguns along with whatever plasma you can afford you basically dont have to think about mitigating ammo rolls.

If youre willing to use up your scarce initial hanger on slots to hire ammojacks and whatever other investments you can make to make your ammo rolls more advantageous then it makes sense to consider going heavy into bolters.

Given that your first hanger on is going to be the Apprentice Chemist, and the fact that you can have Lasguns for 5 and plasmas for 100, having a single character with a bolter for 55 is probably the worst option.

Yes, Plasmas are scarce...but a bolter with an ammo roll of 6+ functionally means that it is too. Your champion character isnt going to be wasting activations fishing for 6s trying to clear this jam. So in my mind 5+ with "scarce" is superior to 6+ without

 

[Orpheus88]

1000 credits does not stretch as far as you would think. It may be tempting to cover both bases of Melee and ranged on all your fighters but that swiftly adds up and you end up with too few fighters.

It is tricky with both delaque and Esher in that regard. They have access to both good and comparatively cheap ranged weapons (auto pistols las gun etc) which are perfectly serviceable to start and a solid collection of melee options at relatively low prices and your fighters are equally good with both so you would think "why not". It does start to add up though.

As you progress you can add back ups. You can plan for all scenarios but do it as a gang not individuals. Have the melee fighter but have a ranged fighter to cover them.

For your ranged fighters with no melee weapon have a look at the unarmed attack rules and think objectively.

(Assume it's your basic ganger and ignore armour bloat which happens later on when you can get better weapons later)

Everyone can attack with thier base Attacks with unarmed attacks.
If you get stuck in melee you can still kick them in the face. It's no thunder hammer but at least it's something.

Your 4+ weapon skill gets you a hit half the time. Half a cake still has cake in it.

It's resolved at your strength (3). The average fighters toughness is 3 so that's another 4+ to wound. Again not woeful.

Taken together you basically have a 1/4 chance of wounding. Ok it's fairly meh but you notice if you get taxed 25% it's still a thing. Especially if many fighters also have it
To start off your ranged fighters will have enough to make a small dent in melee to get by against gangers and juves.
Back ups are for later (or you get the "cursed" shotgun that you never seem to be able to hit anything with it and it jams all the time in spite of basic d6 probability...)

If its just a basic lasgun fighter, youre essentially never going to be in a situation where it makes sense to charge with them rather than shooting.

Ergo, you are the one that is going to get charged...and the way this iteration of the rules works, aside from toughness/wounds/armour there is nothing that you can give this character that helps them survive that charge other than a weapon with parry.

So...the situation is simply that a lasgun armed ganger will almost never use whatever weapon you choose to give them