The fighter that is apparently spending the whole game prone and in cover is not doing much either
The fighter that is apparently spending the whole game prone and in cover is not doing much either
4/5 times you're shooting t3 or wounded t2 foes, and S5 is not helping. Goliath and Brutes are not even half of encounters. But you paid twice the price of a boltgun.
Well, if your side has range or blast advantage, playing the prairie dog works wonders. It might take time, but those grenade launchers, radcannons or crossbows WILL win the war,WW1-style.
Toughness is a top-tier advancement, so you should expect to see it more often than that. Also the Ammo roll is twice as good.
But a flamer is not really a long ranged blast weapon. It is in fact a short range template weapon.
Crawling around prone in your own deployment zone won’t grant you many kills with the flamer, and when you get up you are going to get shot.
Sure, running 20” with a Hip Shooting champion will give you one great shot. But if you don’t either send the whole opposing gang OoA or set them on fire with that one shot, that champion is going to be in for at world of hurt.
if even a single high-value target is set ablaze, it already paid off.
due to actual attack having a good chance to severely injure, and a nasty s3 ap -1 hit on activation, plus the random reposition possibly leading into the open, it actually pays off even with a single high value target. If more are hit due to standing too close, well, joke's on the enemy then.
I've seen an 8-size escher gang wiped on turn three, with a hipshooting overseered delaque champion and a single smoke gl.
first thing he advanced was move, and DAYM, that 24" dash across the board is something of a nightmare... into the smoke cloud.
and yes, the champion survived. Two blazes, one injured, the other died to blaze hit, a broken juve, next turn he proceeded to set two more ablaze, and the match was obviously concluded. Escher player decided it was not a good idea to try fighting without a leader and a champ and bottled out.
And yes, I'm happy there are no more twin hand flamers.
That 25 creds is a little different... you have to buy a whole new weapon. You do get to keep the regular version you had to begin with in the stash but you would have to come up with the full 125 creds at one time and have a model either with a regular plasma to replace or a spare weapon slot.
You could then prolly sell the regular plasma or equip another fighter with it but having all the creds at once is a bit of a gating factor. I realize not much if it is your goal but one none the less...
Cards exist to get extra actions. Combined with overseer, it's pretty easy to get sight on targets to shoot twice, at the very least. Or Needle ways/tunnels. Necromunda offers quite a variety of ways to get around your "but everyone is always pinned in cover" situation. If your opponents are allowed to move that slow, then they are giving you the objectives in the scenario. If that fast shot telescopic sight plasma gun is keeping your entire enemy's heads down... Then I guess he's doing his job as the rest of your gang plunders the battlefield.
Sure, it's 125, but that's only 25 credits over the normal cost of a plasma gun, and 125 creds is not really much to have on hand during a campaign. Otherwise many of these heavy weapons everyone thinks are too strong wouldn't be walking around. It's still ridiculously effective.
Well, if the entire field can be shot through by a single 24" gun then hey, you're playing on a hole-ridden joke of a table...
There are many cards, not just extra actions, there is always a chance that_super_champion suddenly has to take the Initiative test and falls into a hole
And the same three-action card can turn double-hipshooting champion into double-hipshooting-and-shooting champion and the blazing fire now consumes more than just a couple elites...Plasma cannon is 130, plus the suspensor (that is not just 60, it's rare equipment to most gangs) if you want it to shoot (and not lie prone, waiting for overseer to help out, requiring ABSURD amounts of points in that case)
So we're comparing 190 and 100(75 combi) and that is something.
Well, if the entire field can be shot through by a single 24" gun then hey, you're playing on a hole-ridden joke of a table...
There are many cards, not just extra actions, there is always a chance that_super_champion suddenly has to take the Initiative test and falls into a hole
Plasma cannon is 130, plus the suspensor (that is not just 60, it's rare equipment to most gangs) if you want it to shoot (and not lie prone, waiting for overseer to help out, requiring ABSURD amounts of points in that case)
So we're comparing 190 and 100(75 combi) and that is something.
To be fair we were originally comparing a starting Van Saar champion with a plasmagun and fast shot against a starting delaque champion with hip shooting and a M+ advancement.
I’m the one that brought up the plasma cannon because for Van Saar it is the same cost as a flamer (130 credits) though it is able to drop template shots it can’t be combined with fast shot.
But in the end it all came down to what terrain you play with, how stupid your opponent is and other factors such as Tactical cards.
Plasma cannon is worthless without a Suspensor and isn't actually that great for Shooting discipline (blast profile doesn't get any good at all and rapid fire profile doesn't really pay off)
In conclusion what we have is that 2D terrain not ridden with holes is Dominated by hip-shooting blaze weapons, even after HandFlamer has stopped being pistol (no Sidearm in N18 means no twin guns)
Plasma cannon is dubiously pricey yet it's worth it if your community hasn't fixed Fighters in hiding
Plasma guns are useful if your terrain is filled with holes and your opponent doesn't have any methods of deploying Blast or long range weapons at all.
Blaze was absurdly good in N17, got hit in N18 (no double-blaze-weapons unless a tactical cards or archeotech territories are employed)
Plasma is an all-rounder, but it is not worth its price unless you're shooting something REALLY NASTY and use the overcharged profile, otherwise it's not a lot better than a bolter, while costs double its price.
Van Saar are the second best gang to use Template weapons, losing to faster Delaque and second best gang to Escher and Delaque (leader) when it comes to using Unwieldy weapons (because having access to Suspensors is fun, but spring up skill is cheaper and better.
Presumably, hand flamers never were supposed to be twin-gun-blazingable. It was never clear whether 'Pistols' in TGB referred to the weapon category or the weapon trait. This one change they can rightfully claim as a clarification (or, more accurately, a disambiguation).
Not sure about that. They were advocating twin hand flamers as a build option when the Escher packs came out. So I'd call it a change not a clarification.
And it truly is a blessing, for double hand flamer is the single most ridiculous and infuriating thing ever.
@Warpman I’m still having a hard time seeing how the plasma gun is ”absurdly weak”, while the flamers initial attack has “good chance to severely injure”.
One weapon has +1 Strength, +1 Damage and Rapid Fire (1). That does not really add up to it being worse at wounding.
A Hip Shooting plasmagunner would usually have a better chance of taking out the Delaque champion than vice versa. And he is even cheaper.
Players letting their entire gang get hit by 1-2 templates is really not a testament to the awesomeness of flamers. It is rather an example of very bad players.
One weapon has +1 Strength, +1 Damage and Rapid Fire (1). That does not really add up to it being worse at wounding.
A Hip Shooting plasmagunner would usually have a better chance of taking out the Delaque champion than vice versa. And he is even cheaper.
Players letting their entire gang get hit by 1-2 templates is really not a testament to the awesomeness of flamers. It is rather an example of very bad players.
Plasma gun doesn't work versus covering praerie dogs, has an average 1.3 more hits due to Rapid fire, but doesn't disable foes, can stack penalty to hit rolls due to cover hipshooting or abilities, and most of the time has -1 even at close range (-2 cover -1 hipshooting +2 range)
If the foe is a fat target, like most van Saar and Goliath end up (carapace/HCarapace, undermesh, extra toughness) plasma needs to be overcharged to be effective, and that means -2 effective BS, 3+ wound roll and still a chance to not Severely injure. Flamer needs a 4+ to make his next activation a mess. It's damage is also nice, especially if foe is T3.
And yes, that's precisely the above-mentioned overseer plasma. Can't stay within group activation range and be sparce at the same time.
If the foe is a fat target, like most van Saar and Goliath end up (carapace/HCarapace, undermesh, extra toughness) plasma needs to be overcharged to be effective, and that means -2 effective BS, 3+ wound roll and still a chance to not Severely injure. Flamer needs a 4+ to make his next activation a mess. It's damage is also nice, especially if foe is T3.
And yes, that's precisely the above-mentioned overseer plasma. Can't stay within group activation range and be sparce at the same time.
But its apples and oranges.
When we are comparing flamers and plasmaguns, it does not make any sense to say that plasmaguns are bad because you are targeting T6 Sv 2+ fighters and that flamers are good because you are targeting T3 Sv 5+ fighters.
In order to have any sort of viable comparison we must assume the same basic parameters, i.e. targets in this case.
And yes the plasmagunner won’t be doing much damage to the prairie dog. Unless ofcourse he uses his Hip Shooting to position himself properly. But the prairie dog flamer won’t be doing any damage to the other gang either.
When we are comparing flamers and plasmaguns, it does not make any sense to say that plasmaguns are bad because you are targeting T6 Sv 2+ fighters and that flamers are good because you are targeting T3 Sv 5+ fighters.
In order to have any sort of viable comparison we must assume the same basic parameters, i.e. targets in this case.
And yes the plasmagunner won’t be doing much damage to the prairie dog. Unless ofcourse he uses his Hip Shooting to position himself properly. But the prairie dog flamer won’t be doing any damage to the other gang either.
What I mean is that blaze makes an anti-fodder gun great at disabling elite expensive foes, simple as that.
If you're fodder, you just die, and blaze is the cherry topping.
If you're elite behemoth, you laugh at anything below antitank weapons, but 4+ and you're a blazing nothing.
No weapon should ever excel at both fodder cleanup and tank hunt. Period.
Hazard Suits now provide immunity to Blaze and Rad-phage.
Last 2 pages of this are off topic, maybe split off the weapon comparison into its own section as it isn't related to rules questions on the N18 books?
I reckon Escher got some nice new perks! Chem Synth makes sense now, and toxin is now pretty formidable.
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