N18 Noob here, anyone have any advice/tips for my starting Goliath Gang before I start building.

[DialUpSyndrome]

Looking for advice for my first gang list:

Smashing Fellas

Goliath (HoC) gang with a rating of 1025 by DialUpSyndrome

yaktribe.games

I'm planning on using the chem dealer to give the stimmer a stim slug stash.

I have debated for a while the last 30-40 credits, either cc weapons for juves, lose the terminal biology on juves, smoke grenades, more dermal hardening or take an extra juve(current list).

Any assistance will bre greatly appreciated.

Cheers

 

[paxmiles]

Looking for advice for my first gang list:

Smashing Fellas

Goliath (HoC) gang with a rating of 1025 by DialUpSyndrome

yaktribe.games

I'm planning on using the chem dealer to give the stimmer a stim slug stash.

I have debated for a while the last 30-40 credits, either cc weapons for juves, lose the terminal biology on juves, smoke grenades, more dermal hardening or take an extra juve(current list).

Any assistance will bre greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Are you playing in a campaign, or is this like skirmish play? My advice assumes campaign play.

If you can give them a role they are useful in, Juvs are a really strong option for the list in the long term, even if they are pretty sucky in the short term. The Juvs have two key strongpoints (one of which isn't listed on their profile).
-The first is the fast learning, which is on their profile and is pretty minor.
-The second, and the big juv thing, over a ganger, is that non-specialist gangers have to spend their XP randomly. So the gangers end up being regretful in the long term, of course depending on how you randomly roll your XP advancements.

The only ganger worth taking in your starting list, in my opinion, is the one with the free specialist upgrade. Juvs are the ideal one to have otherwise.

Assuming you are playing in a campaign, it's also good to include guys whose value is non-combat. Like I don't mean they can't have weapons, but like sometimes you need a guy that can pass intelligence checks as an action instead of shooting. And if all your champions and characters are needed for their fire support/melee, having a lower cheaper guy that can pass these checks can be helpful. Like looking at your goliath upgrades, I would give serious consideration to a juv with the "proto goliath" genes.

You also might want a champion that is "Unborn" because it allows them to take their starting skill from another category (lets them trade "muscle" for a different primary), like if you want a guy that can overwatch or evade or savy trader.

 

[DialUpSyndrome]

So would you recommend dropping a juve to lose terminal biology and to give a champion natborn and different skill?

I haven't looked extensively into the skills because of information overload I spotted nerves of steel seemed good for melee guys and took it 3 times haha

 

[DialUpSyndrome]

And yeah you were right on trying to prep for a campaign

 

[paxmiles]

So would you recommend dropping a juve to lose terminal biology and to give a champion natborn and different skill?

I haven't looked extensively into the skills because of information overload I spotted nerves of steel seemed good for melee guys and took it 3 times haha

If you are overloaded, don't worry about it. Goliath has a pretty overwhelming set of options in those gene smithing features. Genesmithing is entirely optional, btw. It's a fun set of additional rules, but it adds a lot of things you don't really need to use.

Like maybe do a breakdown of what role each fighter is going to do for your list, in your mind. Then we can assess how to make that happen.

Spoiler: but if you want to be overwhelmed...

Example, you got a long range guy and you want to sit on a tall point and shoot them when they move. For that, you might want Unborn to get get access to Overwatch (cunning) or Fast Shot (shooting) or maybe you want a more defensive ability so you want Evade (Agility).

Nerves of Steel is a great one for melee guys that just blindly rush the enemy. It's a predictable tactic, but if you can get to them and have the melee, it's useful.

And getting pinned isn't as bad for shooting units, especially long range ones, because (part of the the target priority rules):

"Fighters in Hiding: The attacking model cannot target an enemy fighter if they are both Prone (either Pinned or Seriously Injured) and in partial or full cover"

 

[DialUpSyndrome]

Well I've played more 40k than anything else, not that I'm a seasoned player or anything, but it will describe my thoughts process. I've gone for 3 melee threats for single target damage, 2 have decent guns too. Then I have 2 pieces of crowd control/pinning/smoking guys. Then 3 chaff units for trading/objectives grabbing/screening. Then the chem dealer for stims and Fixer keyword

 

[DialUpSyndrome]

The general ame plan is smoke and plink damage untill I can get my melee threats in close, with expendable Juves for utility

 

[paxmiles]

Well I've played more 40k than anything else, not that I'm a seasoned player or anything, but it will describe my thoughts process. I've gone for 3 melee threats for single target damage, 2 have decent guns too. Then I have 2 pieces of crowd control/pinning/smoking guys. Then 3 chaff units for trading/objectives grabbing/screening. Then the chem dealer for stims and Fixer keyword

And yeah you were right on trying to prep for a campaign

The general ame plan is smoke and plink damage untill I can get my melee threats in close, with expendable Juves for utility

I love 40k.

Have you looked at the scenarios your campaign is going to play? Do you know which campaign it is going to be (like underhells or another)?

We've been doing the Underhells campaign (aka hive secundus) and a good chunk of the missions give XP and mission bonuses for using a archeotech artfact, which requires an INT check. Like each guy that gets any of those artefacts gains 1 xp for the mission, so it adds up. And I need my champions to shooting things, so the archeotechs are being handled by juvs and gangers. So depending on your scenario, might want some Proto-Goliaths because they have improved INT.

The other thing is that not all missions let you set up your entire crew. Sometimes you get the whole crew, sometimes it's like 3 of choices plus 3 random (and the others don't show up), and sometimes you have "sentries" that walk around randomly until they notice the enemy and then the rest of your crew shows up gradually.

Also, with regards to the smoke, you know that the opponent can just see through the smoke with the right upgrades, right? Don't want you to be blindsided there. It won't be their whole gang and the upgrades are expensive-ish, but don't expect these smoke clouds to totally block LOS in every game. Examples so you can look them up, my Delaque guys have access to the "Infra-sight" and "Photo-Goggles," both of which allow the fighter to see through and shoot through the smoke.

 

[paxmiles]

Well I've played more 40k than anything else, not that I'm a seasoned player or anything, but it will describe my thoughts process. I've gone for 3 melee threats for single target damage, 2 have decent guns too. Then I have 2 pieces of crowd control/pinning/smoking guys. Then 3 chaff units for trading/objectives grabbing/screening. Then the chem dealer for stims and Fixer keyword

So you have 9 guys?
The list I got for you has 9 guys.

Smashing Fellas

Goliath (HoC) gang with a rating of 1025 by DialUpSyndrome

yaktribe.games

Melee
1 leader: Chainaxe+boltgun
2 champ: Chainaxe+combi(plas/stub)
3 druggy champ: paired spud jackers

Crowd Control
4 ganger specialist: Grenade Launcher
5 Ganger: Combat shotgun

Chaff units
6 juve: Pistol
7 juve: Pistol
8 juve: Pistol

Drug Addict hanger on
9 Chem Dealer

Okay, so for starters, you don't need 9 guys. You can, but it might not be worth the trade off to have so many. Like your guys are less durable individually because they are paying for extra bodies. I feel like 5 or 6 is probably the lowest number you should have... could maybe risk lower with some beasts (they count as wargear). This game kinda penalizes a large starting crew in that many of the scenarios don't allow you to deploy the entire crew as your starting crew. I'd suggest 5-7 starting crew.

And you know you can take 3 weapons per guy? They'll sometimes have a little asterisk which means the weapon counts as 2, but otherwise its 3 per person. Bonus attack for 2 melee, with sidearms counting towards this. Your side arms can only make 1 attack each, and you must split attacks between weapons, so it's like this

Your Tyrant with chainax + bolter has 3 base attacks, 4 on the charge, all of which are chainax attacks.
Your Tyrant with chainax + bolter + Stub gun 3 base attacks, 4 on the charge, and a 5th for paired weapons, 4 of which are chainax attacks and 1 of which is a stub gun attack.
Your Tyrant with chainax + bolter + Fighting knife 3 base attacks, 4 on the charge, and a 5th for paired weapons, 2 or 3 of which are chainax attacks and 3 or 2 of which are fightning knife attacks attack (because 5 is odd, you pick which takes majority when you split your attacks).

Anyway, just saying your tyrant, if they are really melee focused, is leaving a free cheap melee attack on the table.

Juvs are probably not worth taking the pistols, just because your juvs have the sucky BS 5+. Remember that light cover is -1 to hit, and heavy cover is -2 to hit. And your juvs are slow.

Also remember that thrown grenades have a range based on str, so your goliath get more range with their thrown grenades than most factions. Frag Grenades seem like a pretty good starting weapon for juvs, plus with your base T4, frag grenades have a reduce risk of killing your friendlies.

Juvs don't have to be cheap. You can really tool them up, if you want to.

Depending on your campaign, you might want a guy with longer range weapons. I mean, you're slow, and your max range is 24" so the opponent may be able to stay out of your range all game and just snipe you.

That said, if you are doing the underhells campaign, that one has most missions subject to visibility X rules, so longer range is often less useful.

I'd imagine you are chickening out due to the high cost of the heavy weapons. Your call, but they have their moments if you use them right. I wish my delaque had access to your heavy weapons... Genesmithing could also be used to increase your speed or you could go unborn and get access to infiltrate or Run & gun (double move+shoot)

Anyway, not telling you how to play, just trying to expand your understanding.

 

[HugeSamples]

The only ganger worth taking in your starting list, in my opinion, is the one with the free specialist upgrade. Juvs are the ideal one to have otherwise.

I wouldn't discount having a health roster of gangers.

They have good stats and more importantly a good cool rating. Having a strong core of fighter that will likely stick around post failing a bottle really lets you out last your enemy. i.e. if both of you have bottled you are more likely to win that attrition war.

Goliath, in general, have more of an elite playstyle rather that swarm (that's more of a Cawdor thing). I'd still aim for at least 8 fighters, but I also wouldn't over populate the juves. That said I'm not really a Goliath player, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

 

[paxmiles]

I wouldn't discount having a health roster of gangers.

They have good stats and more importantly a good cool rating. Having a strong core of fighter that will likely stick around post failing a bottle really lets you out last your enemy. i.e. if both of you have bottled you are more likely to win that attrition war.

Goliath, in general, have more of an elite playstyle rather that swarm (that's more of a Cawdor thing). I'd still aim for at least 8 fighters, but I also wouldn't over populate the juves. That said I'm not really a Goliath player, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Also not a goliath player (they tempt me). A lot of this is just guesswork that really depends on your opponents and your campaign rules.

But like comparing stats of gangers vs juvs, the main advantage of the ganger is if you need more shooting. Juvs are basically as good in melee (same WS, S, T, and Attacks). Juvs have worse mental stats, and worse BS, but that's it. That, and the equipment list.

And then there's the genesmithing, which is goliath unique and really alters your options a lot.

I don't suggest spamming gangers or juvs. Like take the max champions/leaders you are allowed to take. I think, for campaign play, the juvs are superior to gangers, but ganger specialists are superior to juvs...

As for fighter count, I tend to go odd numbers because there's always the possibility one of your gangers dies and you don't have the funds to add a ganger/juv, which would give you too many champions, so it forces to retire one of them...At least that's how I think it works - it hasn't come up, I just worry about it.

 

[Aulenback]

Juvs are a really strong option for the list in the long term, even if they are pretty sucky in the short term.

Heck, GOLIATH Juves aren't even all that sucky even in the short term. They are no long-range shooting support, with that Ballistic Skill, but their Weapon Skill and Strength and Toughness and Initiative are as good as those of a Goliath Ganger: 4s across the board. So they're like melee gangers at a discount. And if you keep them light (axe and stub gun, say?), that leaves room for them to pick up some FANCY melee toy once they get Advances and become Specialist Gangers.That lets you keep your gangers focused on shooting support, with their boltguns and such.

 

[HugeSamples]

Juves are fine combat wise, for close combat at least.

But gangers start out with a cool of 5 on top of their solid stats. They form a solid core for your gang.

Juves needs a lot of xp to improve to that level on top of improving their combat stats. At least 8xp for +2 to their cool, on top things like WS/S/T/W/A upgrades.

If it were me I'd probably want something like:
- leader
- champ
- special champ
- 3-4 gangers
- 1-2 juves

But like I said before I'm not a Goliath player.

 

[paxmiles]

Heck, GOLIATH Juves aren't even all that sucky even in the short term. They are no long-range shooting support, with that Ballistic Skill, but their Weapon Skill and Strength and Toughness and Initiative are as good as those of a Goliath Ganger: 4s across the board. So they're like melee gangers at a discount. And if you keep them light (axe and stub gun, say?), that leaves room for them to pick up some FANCY melee toy once they get Advances and become Specialist Gangers.That lets you keep your gangers focused on shooting support, with their boltguns and such.

You are right. I just meant that there's this perception when looking at the gang roster that gangers are better than juvs, and I think it's misleading for new players.

Like my Delaque juvs can take hand flamers and web pistols (aka flame template weapons) or the web gauntlet (+1 to hit melee weapon that ignores saves).

 

[Vonvilkee]

Actual Goliath player here. The above is good except for the number of fighters.

8 is too many starting and with fixer you'll be able to fill the roster soon enough. As the gene smithing is hire only make sure to pick good ones except for the chump running straight at the enemy.

The bit about juves being close combat gangers on the cheap is a good point. Notice the extra strength on Goliath, you punch as well most fighters with a fancy weapon, save the creds on melee weapons and add them after a game or two. Stub guns are cheap and pinning happens so even your combat fighters (without skills) will almost never charge, save the creds for "good" fighters.

Don't be afraid to run stub cannons, I know the range is a bit shorter than most but they are 18" range, plentiful with a 3+ ammo. This means they rarely if ever run out of ammo and can be counted on to keep firing once in range. Strength 5 is no joke when it comes to wounding things.

Goliath are dependable for the attrition game lean into that. Improve cool for the gang hierarchy models and run in small groups to use the leading by example spreading of cool test passing. I'm also one to take the inspirational skill, fail a cool? Leader gets to take a leadership test to make it passed. Nifty bit it is a friendly fighter who fails in range... the leader himself is a friendly fighter with in the range! So what if you fail a bottling check, roll those cool tests and demoralize your enemy when your meat heads just keep to the plan of smack down.

 

[paxmiles]

@Vonvilkee I love that hamster in your avatar.

 

[DialUpSyndrome]

So you have 9 guys?
The list I got for you has 9 guys.

Smashing Fellas

Goliath (HoC) gang with a rating of 1025 by DialUpSyndrome

yaktribe.games

Melee
1 leader: Chainaxe+boltgun
2 champ: Chainaxe+combi(plas/stub)
3 druggy champ: paired spud jackers

Crowd Control
4 ganger specialist: Grenade Launcher
5 Ganger: Combat shotgun

Chaff units
6 juve: Pistol
7 juve: Pistol
8 juve: Pistol

Drug Addict hanger on
9 Chem Dealer

Okay, so for starters, you don't need 9 guys. You can, but it might not be worth the trade off to have so many. Like your guys are less durable individually because they are paying for extra bodies. I feel like 5 or 6 is probably the lowest number you should have... could maybe risk lower with some beasts (they count as wargear). This game kinda penalizes a large starting crew in that many of the scenarios don't allow you to deploy the entire crew as your starting crew. I'd suggest 5-7 starting crew.

And you know you can take 3 weapons per guy? They'll sometimes have a little asterisk which means the weapon counts as 2, but otherwise its 3 per person. Bonus attack for 2 melee, with sidearms counting towards this. Your side arms can only make 1 attack each, and you must split attacks between weapons, so it's like this

Your Tyrant with chainax + bolter has 3 base attacks, 4 on the charge, all of which are chainax attacks.
Your Tyrant with chainax + bolter + Stub gun 3 base attacks, 4 on the charge, and a 5th for paired weapons, 4 of which are chainax attacks and 1 of which is a stub gun attack.
Your Tyrant with chainax + bolter + Fighting knife 3 base attacks, 4 on the charge, and a 5th for paired weapons, 2 or 3 of which are chainax attacks and 3 or 2 of which are fightning knife attacks attack (because 5 is odd, you pick which takes majority when you split your attacks).

Anyway, just saying your tyrant, if they are really melee focused, is leaving a free cheap melee attack on the table.

Juvs are probably not worth taking the pistols, just because your juvs have the sucky BS 5+. Remember that light cover is -1 to hit, and heavy cover is -2 to hit. And your juvs are slow.

Also remember that thrown grenades have a range based on str, so your goliath get more range with their thrown grenades than most factions. Frag Grenades seem like a pretty good starting weapon for juvs, plus with your base T4, frag grenades have a reduce risk of killing your friendlies.

Juvs don't have to be cheap. You can really tool them up, if you want to.

Depending on your campaign, you might want a guy with longer range weapons. I mean, you're slow, and your max range is 24" so the opponent may be able to stay out of your range all game and just snipe you.

That said, if you are doing the underhells campaign, that one has most missions subject to visibility X rules, so longer range is often less useful.

I'd imagine you are chickening out due to the high cost of the heavy weapons. Your call, but they have their moments if you use them right. I wish my delaque had access to your heavy weapons... Genesmithing could also be used to increase your speed or you could go unborn and get access to infiltrate or Run & gun (double move+shoot)

Anyway, not telling you how to play, just trying to expand your understanding.

Awesome knowledge bomb thank you. I had no idea I could use a fighting knife as well on the tyrant!

The guns on the Juves were because the stub gun is only 5 credits and having something to do at range felt better than nothing but yeah maybe it is still nothing with all the cover.

You've given me a lot to ponder over.

I'm worried about only having 1 juve because of the rule to need more equal fighters to champions. Granted I don't really know how lethal the game is, hence the 9 gangers haha.

It does seem like dropping a body maybe 2 to increase the quality of ganger might be the play?

 

[DialUpSyndrome]

I wouldn't discount having a health roster of gangers.

They have good stats and more importantly a good cool rating. Having a strong core of fighter that will likely stick around post failing a bottle really lets you out last your enemy. i.e. if both of you have bottled you are more likely to win that attrition war.

Goliath, in general, have more of an elite playstyle rather that swarm (that's more of a Cawdor thing). I'd still aim for at least 8 fighters, but I also wouldn't over populate the juves. That said I'm not really a Goliath player, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Cheers for the input man, I've been leaning towards this. Maybe 9 gangers is too many though and the 35 creds is better spent upgrading others

 

[DialUpSyndrome]

Actual Goliath player here. The above is good except for the number of fighters.

8 is too many starting and with fixer you'll be able to fill the roster soon enough. As the gene smithing is hire only make sure to pick good ones except for the chump running straight at the enemy.

The bit about juves being close combat gangers on the cheap is a good point. Notice the extra strength on Goliath, you punch as well most fighters with a fancy weapon, save the creds on melee weapons and add them after a game or two. Stub guns are cheap and pinning happens so even your combat fighters (without skills) will almost never charge, save the creds for "good" fighters.

Don't be afraid to run stub cannons, I know the range is a bit shorter than most but they are 18" range, plentiful with a 3+ ammo. This means they rarely if ever run out of ammo and can be counted on to keep firing once in range. Strength 5 is no joke when it comes to wounding things.

Goliath are dependable for the attrition game lean into that. Improve cool for the gang hierarchy models and run in small groups to use the leading by example spreading of cool test passing. I'm also one to take the inspirational skill, fail a cool? Leader gets to take a leadership test to make it passed. Nifty bit it is a friendly fighter who fails in range... the leader himself is a friendly fighter with in the range! So what if you fail a bottling check, roll those cool tests and demoralize your enemy when your meat heads just keep to the plan of smack down.

This sounds like some great advice, I guess I should drop a couple Juves and get a bully with stub cannon? Then you think change the extra strength gene smithing on leaders to have more cool? My thoughts was it's nice to wound on twos haha but maybe that's overkill and I just let bottle checks do the work?

Am I along the right lines?

 

[Vonvilkee]

This sounds like some great advice, I guess I should drop a couple Juves and get a bully with stub cannon? Then you think change the extra strength gene smithing on leaders to have more cool? My thoughts was it's nice to wound on twos haha but maybe that's overkill and I just let bottle checks do the work?

Am I along the right lines?

Yeah, looks like you already made some changes! The game can be lethal but as long as you make 35 ish creds on the first game you can buy another bully, you lose more than that and it makes more sense to just refound the gang from scratch.

Getting to strength 6 is kind of fun for wounding on 2s but most other gangs race to get t4 to stop that on worthwhile fighters. I find st4 Stat with weapon up to 5 to be plenty and go with more attacks or wounds with the gene smithing.

I favor the leader as a counter charger so having a good gun on him is solid, bolters are pretty good and the chain ax is great. With three attacks Stat I'm not a fan of an extra "cheap" melee weapon. Splitting attacks evenly is annoying and steals attacks from a better weapon. I recommend a sidearm of you want that extra cheap attack as they are cheaper, give you a range attack incase the better weapon is out of ammo and can only get the "extra" attack assigned to it.

These are more for growing the good core you got there. Grenade launcher is great on that leader as well the krak grenade is like the bolter, you can get better ammo rolls via optional rounds and having bs3+ is better than the 4+ elsewhere.

Also that combi plasma stub... really read the combi rules, they are bad for that scarce. Take one of each pistol if you really want pistols.