I am trying to put together an Escher list. sometime in the near future I will be playing them in a campaign which has a 1,000 credit starting cap. I bought the Escher gang box and that is it. I am thinking about also getting the weapons upgrade box if needed. My plan for the gang is a decent mix of melee and long range attacks. I am not planning on starting the campaign with a death-maiden or wyld runner, unless someone has some really good insight as to why I should. Any help would be greatly appreciated as the list building is the worst part of gaming in my opinion. LOL
N18 Noob Needs help
- Thread starter Garrett Lassitter
- Start date
this article may help:
www.goonhammer.com
there are also other (non gang specific) gangbuiding articles on that site
I'm not an escher player but here are a few tips:
-try to start with enough gangers (8-10)
-you have a discount on lasguns and they can help you to pin/immobilise your opponents, so take enough
-your champions have better stats, use these as (supported) shock troops with better gear
-think about specific roles for each ganger, check the profiles and acces to skills to see who's better at melee/ranged,...
-backup weapons can wait till later in the campaign, start with one load out
-in the long run investing in escher chem's may be applied to toxin & gas weapons, keep this in mind when picking weapons.
-the death maiden are rightly feared, pick at least one
Necromunday: Houses of the Underhive – Escher
Welcome back, Scummers, to another edition of your favorite downhive weekly: Necromunday! We’re ripping one of our older articles down to the foundation and rebuilding the ol’ Escher tactica with a…
www.goonhammer.com
I'm not an escher player but here are a few tips:
-try to start with enough gangers (8-10)
-you have a discount on lasguns and they can help you to pin/immobilise your opponents, so take enough
-your champions have better stats, use these as (supported) shock troops with better gear
-think about specific roles for each ganger, check the profiles and acces to skills to see who's better at melee/ranged,...
-backup weapons can wait till later in the campaign, start with one load out
-in the long run investing in escher chem's may be applied to toxin & gas weapons, keep this in mind when picking weapons.
-the death maiden are rightly feared, pick at least one
How do you want to orient your gang? you said a mixed of shooting and melee but what will be the anvil and what will be the hammer? Escher are a bit of a paradox in the sens they are not a shooting gang but they have acces to the cheapest and most efficient basic weapon at 5 credits. They have some of the CC fighter but they are glass canon they can deal but not receive damage. I m a big fan of their death maidens and juve even if i dont like their reinforcement box miniature death maiden.
Death Maidens are really good.
The Wyld Runners are meh at best.
If you want to have a strong melee front I would use at least one Death Maiden. You don't necessarily need to buy the extra box (you can make a dual sword Escher out of the core box). And/or the weapon pack has needle pistols on it.
Having put together and painted an official Death Maiden, they are really spindly and not enjoyable to build or paint
.
The Wyld Runners are meh at best.
If you want to have a strong melee front I would use at least one Death Maiden. You don't necessarily need to buy the extra box (you can make a dual sword Escher out of the core box). And/or the weapon pack has needle pistols on it.
Having put together and painted an official Death Maiden, they are really spindly and not enjoyable to build or paint
.-The death maiden is one of the best champions in the game and leverages the chem/toxin mechanics the most. However, she doesnt get to use special weapons.
- Get the Apprentice Chemist as your first hanger on. She has Fixer so she makes you money every game, over and above making the chems and toxins cheaper...as well as resurrecting your champions into death maidens.
-I am of the minority opinion that the Wyld Runners are an excellent prospect character. They have an extra movement and ballistic skill over the regular juvie and will promote to a regular champion instead of just a specialist. The S2 doesnt matter since you have access to toxin weapons for cheap.
-The composition of your gang is really determined by how many plasma guns you want to start with on your leader and champions.
-However many gangers you start with, just give them lasguns.
-Wyld runners with stilletto knives as the youngsters you care about trying to level
-Regular juvies are your meatbags who you later on in your campaign will get for free from your settlement(s). Dont forget that you have a tactic you can play where any character that happens to die automatically becomes a death maiden
- Get the Apprentice Chemist as your first hanger on. She has Fixer so she makes you money every game, over and above making the chems and toxins cheaper...as well as resurrecting your champions into death maidens.
-I am of the minority opinion that the Wyld Runners are an excellent prospect character. They have an extra movement and ballistic skill over the regular juvie and will promote to a regular champion instead of just a specialist. The S2 doesnt matter since you have access to toxin weapons for cheap.
-The composition of your gang is really determined by how many plasma guns you want to start with on your leader and champions.
-However many gangers you start with, just give them lasguns.
-Wyld runners with stilletto knives as the youngsters you care about trying to level
-Regular juvies are your meatbags who you later on in your campaign will get for free from your settlement(s). Dont forget that you have a tactic you can play where any character that happens to die automatically becomes a death maiden
Wyld Runners are a bit expensive at 45 credits (a ganger is 50, with a lasgun is 55). Their weapon access is bad. Unless you are interested in the cats there really isn't much of a reason to get one. The cats are also quite expensive for what they are. Don't get me wrong I like having a swarm of cats (I find it funny). But outside of having fun it's hard to justify getting a Wyld Runner.
I don't think units can be compared solely on their role. A wild runner doesn't work the same way as a ganger.
Sure, like I alluded to the only really unique thing about them is cat access and the ability to pick how they advance. That said Juves also get to pick how they advance, so really all they have going for them is the cats.
Their weapon availability it outclassed by any other fighter type IMO. Their unique weapon--the wyld bow--unfortunately, is bad
.
I disagree on the Wyld bow. I find it pretty good. But hey that's why I love this forum. You can disagree and still think the other side is great.
I like the model that has the bow, so I often end up taking one.
If we look at cost a wyld bow:
- 10 credits base
- +25 for poisons arrows
- +20 for explosive arrows (these have unstable, so meh)
- +20 for acid arrows (these have blaze, so they aren't bad)
if you just take the poison arrows you're looking at 35 credits. For a total of 80 credits (45 + 35).
A specialist with a needle rifle is 85 credits (50 + 35).
For me personally, unless you plan to take the cats, you have better ways to spend your credits.
(I do take a wyld runner for the cats, usually with a bow because I like the model).
The -1 to hit at long range and no ap really hurts the wyld bow's value IMO.
If we look at cost a wyld bow:
- 10 credits base
- +25 for poisons arrows
- +20 for explosive arrows (these have unstable, so meh)
- +20 for acid arrows (these have blaze, so they aren't bad)
if you just take the poison arrows you're looking at 35 credits. For a total of 80 credits (45 + 35).
A specialist with a needle rifle is 85 credits (50 + 35).
For me personally, unless you plan to take the cats, you have better ways to spend your credits.
(I do take a wyld runner for the cats, usually with a bow because I like the model).
The -1 to hit at long range and no ap really hurts the wyld bow's value IMO.
It really depends on how much you value the extra BS and M. Remember that they do promote to a full champion instead of just a specialist.
Its a greater upfront investment for sure
They do promote if you can get 3--previously 5--advancements before downtime (usually 6 games) in a campaign. Otherwise, they stay a Wyld Runner forever.
XP can be quite challenging to get if they have a hard time hitting/applying damage--at long range the bow is a 5+ to hit someone in the open, at short range (9") you're at 4+ in the open (50/50). You had better Seriously Injure or take your target OOA, otherwise they are going to take you OOA. The blaze/poison arrows help with that, but at that price point you're competing with "better models, with better guns".
When they do become a champion, you're going to need to spend a bunch of credits to give them proper equipment. Maybe, you spend your downtime credits here rather than on a brute or outright buying another champion?
They are an ok model, but I feel like you need to have a plan, or use the cats (their real unique aspect) to get value out of them. i.e. a champion with a pack of 3 cats is something you can't get any other way.
The bow by itself isn't really good enough by itself to get a Wyld Runner IMO. As much as I would like the bow to be good, it's over-costed for what it is. The base version should be free IMO.
Unfortunately most prospects fall into this kind of bucket.
It's fine to use them, but like all things there are opportunity costs to consider.
XP can be quite challenging to get if they have a hard time hitting/applying damage--at long range the bow is a 5+ to hit someone in the open, at short range (9") you're at 4+ in the open (50/50). You had better Seriously Injure or take your target OOA, otherwise they are going to take you OOA. The blaze/poison arrows help with that, but at that price point you're competing with "better models, with better guns".
When they do become a champion, you're going to need to spend a bunch of credits to give them proper equipment. Maybe, you spend your downtime credits here rather than on a brute or outright buying another champion?
They are an ok model, but I feel like you need to have a plan, or use the cats (their real unique aspect) to get value out of them
. i.e. a champion with a pack of 3 cats is something you can't get any other way.The bow by itself isn't really good enough by itself to get a Wyld Runner IMO. As much as I would like the bow to be good, it's over-costed for what it is. The base version should be free IMO.
Unfortunately most prospects fall into this kind of bucket
.It's fine to use them, but like all things there are opportunity costs to consider.
Don't look at the Wyld bow is in isolation compared it to its peers when comparing it to a Sister or little sister trying for the same role,
A Wyld bow is a basic weapon. It can have a telescopic sight fitted for 25 credits. (Real world bows can have sights it is not as outlandish as it sounds).
So with an Aim action (+1 to hit) and the sight using Short range accuracy on Aims the Wyld runner hits on a 3+ up to 18" away. (Big wow... That's a normal lasgun shot without sight I know).
However it is Silent with a 4+ ammo roll.
If any visibility rule in in effect, here is me looking at you Ash Wastes/Underhells, then it lets you snipe away without getting Revealed. It doesn't hit as hard as the Needle rifle sure but it is not a 6+ Scarce weapon so can be counted on to keep firing.
Second use, and this is probably even rarer, is a sneak attack weapon. Sneak attacks are rare unless you are mounting a Rescue mission of some sort. If you fire a ranged weapon it triggers the alarm. If it is Silent like the bow you do not half the time. It could give you a round of extra sneaking.
It is also available on a none gang hierarchy model.
If you have a captured gang member that you really want to keep and rescue it will be that Matriarch or Queen or Specialist who has been captured. And they were the one carrying the (none reloading aside) superior needle rifle
It could very well be that you have only Sisters and Wyld runners available to mount the rescue. And Wild runners are the only one available to have a native Silent weapon. (Nobody should use throwing knives as a principle weapon when any pistol is better. If they could also be used as Stiletto daggers it would be a different story).
Your Sisters may take a Gunshroud to gain traction in this very narrow niche but why would you get one before a Hotshot pack which is more useful all the time? Hotshot Gunshroud lasgun Sister 95 credits. Wyld runner with Telescopic bow 80. You could even drop the sight and it's 55 credits.
Given that it's your better armed Matriarch that has been captured you and you are left with the B team running the Rescue the faster cheaper Wyld runners are the way to go.
For this ultra narrow role that doesn't come up much.
The bow does have uses seperate from the Silent trait. It is a ganger/prospect level long range Blast weapon or Toxin, or Blaze. That is cheap and not Limited.
(Hand thrown grenades have a long rand of 9". The bows is 18").
If you are ever on the recieving end of a firing squad of four plus Hive scum with shotguns with shatter shells you will know how effective a barrage of Blast 3 shots is from 18" away. (Especially if they cheat and have a bullet merchant to lessen Limited).
Your gang sister needs a 30 credit shotgun and then a Trade post Rare 9 purchase of 15 credits for a total of 45 credits to get a proper ranged Blast weapon (ammo is not a weapon it's wargear so gangers can get it. Unless you think throwing bullets is an option, lets not get into that argument).
The Wyld runner gets a 10 credit bow and 20 credit explosive arrows for 30 credits. You get all the pinning greatness of Blast 3" and you don't have to have a hanger on who coats 75 to reload it after the battle when the weapon runs out. (Ok it's a unstable bomb on a stick but you at least have Hothead to not panic others when it goes off).
Sisters have no option for Long range Toxin. Period.
Hand held grenades have max range (when S3) of 9", half the bows range.
A Sister may attempt to set folk on fire with Acid ammo that may hit hard Via Scatter shot. At 8"
Alternatively they could Trade Post Rare 8 Inferno Rounds for a Limited 15 credits. At 16". Which is a good range yours is still 18"
All blaze weapons have the same chance of setting something on fire. The Wyld bow has the longest range of any Blaze weapon in the game.
Sister shot gun with Acid ammo 45 credits (at least it's not limited this time). Range 8"
Sister shotgun with Inferno ammo Rare 8 45 credits and Limited. Range 16"
Wyld bow with poison arrows 30. Range 18"
To have both Blaze and Blast options it costs the Wyld runner 50 credits
For the sisters super shotgun ammo option it costs 60 credits a Rare 9 Trade post roll and you have at least one Limited ammo so to replace it you have to spend even more or get a 75 credit bullet merchant.
When comparing the Wyld bow to a Sister trying to perform the same role of long range Blaze, Toxin or Blast the Wyld runner is actually the cheaper option.
A Lascannon is plain nastier but it is not competing with that weapon.
A telescopic sighted Wyld bow at 55 credits gives you an Aimed Blaze shot hitting in 3+ at 18". That is long ranged flame power those Cawdor fools drool over. Place her next to that ammo cache your gang bought to accompany your plasma gun Matriarch and it is a recipe for hilarious sniping.
A Wyld bow is a basic weapon. It can have a telescopic sight fitted for 25 credits. (Real world bows can have sights it is not as outlandish as it sounds).
So with an Aim action (+1 to hit) and the sight using Short range accuracy on Aims the Wyld runner hits on a 3+ up to 18" away. (Big wow... That's a normal lasgun shot without sight I know).
However it is Silent with a 4+ ammo roll.
If any visibility rule in in effect, here is me looking at you Ash Wastes/Underhells, then it lets you snipe away without getting Revealed. It doesn't hit as hard as the Needle rifle sure but it is not a 6+ Scarce weapon so can be counted on to keep firing.
Second use, and this is probably even rarer, is a sneak attack weapon. Sneak attacks are rare unless you are mounting a Rescue mission of some sort. If you fire a ranged weapon it triggers the alarm. If it is Silent like the bow you do not half the time. It could give you a round of extra sneaking.
It is also available on a none gang hierarchy model.
If you have a captured gang member that you really want to keep and rescue it will be that Matriarch or Queen or Specialist who has been captured. And they were the one carrying the (none reloading aside) superior needle rifle
It could very well be that you have only Sisters and Wyld runners available to mount the rescue. And Wild runners are the only one available to have a native Silent weapon. (Nobody should use throwing knives as a principle weapon when any pistol is better. If they could also be used as Stiletto daggers it would be a different story).
Your Sisters may take a Gunshroud to gain traction in this very narrow niche but why would you get one before a Hotshot pack which is more useful all the time? Hotshot Gunshroud lasgun Sister 95 credits. Wyld runner with Telescopic bow 80. You could even drop the sight and it's 55 credits.
Given that it's your better armed Matriarch that has been captured you and you are left with the B team running the Rescue the faster cheaper Wyld runners are the way to go.
For this ultra narrow role that doesn't come up much.
The bow does have uses seperate from the Silent trait. It is a ganger/prospect level long range Blast weapon or Toxin, or Blaze. That is cheap and not Limited.
(Hand thrown grenades have a long rand of 9". The bows is 18").
If you are ever on the recieving end of a firing squad of four plus Hive scum with shotguns with shatter shells you will know how effective a barrage of Blast 3 shots is from 18" away. (Especially if they cheat and have a bullet merchant to lessen Limited).
Your gang sister needs a 30 credit shotgun and then a Trade post Rare 9 purchase of 15 credits for a total of 45 credits to get a proper ranged Blast weapon (ammo is not a weapon it's wargear so gangers can get it. Unless you think throwing bullets is an option, lets not get into that argument).
The Wyld runner gets a 10 credit bow and 20 credit explosive arrows for 30 credits. You get all the pinning greatness of Blast 3" and you don't have to have a hanger on who coats 75 to reload it after the battle when the weapon runs out. (Ok it's a unstable bomb on a stick but you at least have Hothead to not panic others when it goes off).
Sisters have no option for Long range Toxin. Period.
Hand held grenades have max range (when S3) of 9", half the bows range.
A Sister may attempt to set folk on fire with Acid ammo that may hit hard Via Scatter shot. At 8"
Alternatively they could Trade Post Rare 8 Inferno Rounds for a Limited 15 credits. At 16". Which is a good range yours is still 18"
All blaze weapons have the same chance of setting something on fire. The Wyld bow has the longest range of any Blaze weapon in the game.
Sister shot gun with Acid ammo 45 credits (at least it's not limited this time). Range 8"
Sister shotgun with Inferno ammo Rare 8 45 credits and Limited. Range 16"
Wyld bow with poison arrows 30. Range 18"
To have both Blaze and Blast options it costs the Wyld runner 50 credits
For the sisters super shotgun ammo option it costs 60 credits a Rare 9 Trade post roll and you have at least one Limited ammo so to replace it you have to spend even more or get a 75 credit bullet merchant.
When comparing the Wyld bow to a Sister trying to perform the same role of long range Blaze, Toxin or Blast the Wyld runner is actually the cheaper option.
A Lascannon is plain nastier but it is not competing with that weapon.
A telescopic sighted Wyld bow at 55 credits gives you an Aimed Blaze shot hitting in 3+ at 18". That is long ranged flame power those Cawdor fools drool over. Place her next to that ammo cache your gang bought to accompany your plasma gun Matriarch and it is a recipe for hilarious sniping.
I appreciate the write up and respect your point of view, but all of these scenarios sound incredibly niche.
Is turning the bow into a double action weapon to make it "usable" really that good?
Sights aren't on their house list. You're going to need to get one from the trading post after the first game. Which is fine. However, having a "dead model" for that first game really hurts (I experience that with psy-gheists a lot ).
She's an investment:
- a bit too expensive to use as chaff like you can with little sisters
- a bit too weak to really ramp up the Xp gains like you can with a leader, champion, or specialist.
I also think Wyld Runners being Strength 2 really limits their melee options to toxin only. Don't get me wrong toxin weapons are good and Escher's thing, but it limits their ability to grow without spending Xp to level their Strength back up to average. At that point (outside of the cats) a Little Sister does their job better.
I think the blaze arrows are ok.
I think the poison arrows are ok.
The explosive arrows have unstable, so that's generally a pass from me.
The -1 at long range (which is mid-range in the grand scheme of things) makes it difficult to see her as a "sniper".
I think it's too expensive Xp wise to turn her into a melee monster. You'd need Attack, Weapon skill, and maybe even Strength upgrades on top of upgrades like Toughness and Wounds.
I think she's a decent model at close range (1-9").
Personally, when I run one, I run her with the bow and the cats--move in to shoot at close range, then charge the cats to finish the job. I spend xp on Ballistic skill, Toughness, and Wounds. If she makes it to a champion, then she gets the bigger cats. Insert Family Guy meme of Adam West with his cat launcher crossbow, or the crazy cat lady from The Simpsons.
I like the lore, I like the model, and I like the beast master vibe they have. However, it's just really expensive to get them to where they need to be.
Is turning the bow into a double action weapon to make it "usable" really that good?
Sights aren't on their house list. You're going to need to get one from the trading post after the first game. Which is fine. However, having a "dead model" for that first game really hurts (I experience that with psy-gheists a lot
).She's an investment:
- a bit too expensive to use as chaff like you can with little sisters
- a bit too weak to really ramp up the Xp gains like you can with a leader, champion, or specialist.
I also think Wyld Runners being Strength 2 really limits their melee options to toxin only. Don't get me wrong toxin weapons are good and Escher's thing, but it limits their ability to grow without spending Xp to level their Strength back up to average. At that point (outside of the cats) a Little Sister does their job better.
I think the blaze arrows are ok.
I think the poison arrows are ok.
The explosive arrows have unstable, so that's generally a pass from me.
The -1 at long range (which is mid-range in the grand scheme of things) makes it difficult to see her as a "sniper".
I think it's too expensive Xp wise to turn her into a melee monster. You'd need Attack, Weapon skill, and maybe even Strength upgrades on top of upgrades like Toughness and Wounds.
I think she's a decent model at close range (1-9").
Personally, when I run one, I run her with the bow and the cats--move in to shoot at close range, then charge the cats to finish the job. I spend xp on Ballistic skill, Toughness, and Wounds. If she makes it to a champion, then she gets the bigger cats
. Insert Family Guy meme of Adam West with his cat launcher crossbow, or the crazy cat lady from The Simpsons.I like the lore, I like the model, and I like the beast master vibe they have. However, it's just really expensive to get them to where they need to be.
HugeSamples
You still makes an investment with the cats. It's a different investment. But i think we need to make a specific topic about the bow because that was not the original topic. Similar threads
