N18 Outcast Gang Power Level

[Scabs]

I'm 3-0-1 with my OC. I must be doing something wrong.

It's the nature of the game. You win some, you lose some (and please, the Competitive vs Narrative BS is, well, BS; yawn x 20+ years of internet).

OC is similar to GSC and Chaos Cult. Except better Leaders, but cheap worse-to-average everyone else. The only special rule is a wide-open Leader choice insanely balanced by having to disband the gang if the Leader dies. Oh, and no starting Specialists. and no Juves. And Champs are less-than-select. Not the stuff of legends, but plenty adequate.

My pet peeve is they are intentionally bland. Hive Scum ain't Hive Skavvies or Hive Zealots, etc. Just plain ole Hive Joe's. OC are amazingly unburdened with organic details and rules (looking at you, Corpse Grinder Cult), They don't have universal "character rules," like maybe they shouldn't care as much if a nearby fellow OC gets SI or OAA. Or, be as prone to Bottle, because they just don't care and tend to linger. Or, maybe when gathered in clusters they get a Cool boost. Or, they are so personally generic, opponents have to randomize shooting hits.

The final product is like how I judge modern art. If I could have done it, it ain't all that artful.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Somehow combining the Venator and outcast lists to provide for more variations in the champion department could be a good start. Keep the Rarity 8 options, but give them a few more profiles to choose from. The tactic cards for Outcasts are really good; they drive home the super villain vibe well.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I'm 3-0-1 with my OC. I must be doing something wrong.

It's the nature of the game. You win some, you lose some (and please, the Competitive vs Narrative BS is, well, BS; yawn x 20+ years of internet).

I wanted to explain that in my club-meta the outcast gang is weaker than most other houses, especially if you are building a list from a narrative standpoint. My purpose was not to argue that one play style is better than the other. I’m not blaming the list for my poor for win/loss record; my games have been totally exciting and they’ve gone back-and-forth with characters and Gangers being taken out of action on both sides. In fact, in the game I lost I gained three reputation for taking the crazy Van Saar House agent out with hive scum. That’s a victory onto itself.

 

[Scabs]

My post was aimed at the Metaverse. If it seemed personal, my very, very bad. I agree the OC ain't top of the heap. But, I got the impression from the tone of the thread OC was getting a seriously underpowered rep. It's not. Again, that's on me.

Necromunda does not have binary play styles. The campaign system and all it entails are purposely open to interpretation and individual desires. It's chockful of randomness that helps shape a story (or journey). Where one falls on the spectrum of "competative" can even very between games.

Waaay back at the very dawn of N17, after our very first campaign game, one of our players (one of my better friends) had remarkably (and never repeated) bad luck, left with three fighters for his next game. I was to play him, and had my full gang available. I'm as comparative as the next guy, with a gamer's fragile ego. But, what's really comparative here? Play a game with such an advantage it is probably gonna be a cakewalk? Or, just leave most of my gang back in the hideout, and bring 3 guys to make our game more of an even contest?

Of course, I opted for 3v3, playing the original boxed set's ridiculous scenario played in the box's bottom half (literally in the box lid). Because, that's a once-in-a-lifetime stupid thing to do. IIRC, my superior die rolls dominated that game. Because I'm competitive from the wrist down.

 

[JawRippa]

Waaay back at the very dawn of N17, after our very first campaign game, one of our players (one of my better friends) had remarkably (and never repeated) bad luck, left with three fighters for his next game. I was to play him, and had my full gang available. I'm as comparative as the next guy, with a gamer's fragile ego. But, what's really comparative here? Play a game with such an advantage it is probably gonna be a cakewalk? Or, just leave most of my gang back in the hideout, and bring 3 guys to make our game more of an even contest?

Of course, I opted for 3v3, playing the original boxed set's ridiculous scenario played in the box's bottom half (literally in the box lid). Because, that's a once-in-a-lifetime stupid thing to do. IIRC, my superior die rolls dominated that game. Because I'm competitive from the wrist down.

Thats the problem, thats not a rare situation. Lasting injury table really likes to send your fighters into recovery, something that old necromunda never did. I once won a 3vsEntire gang situation as Goliaths, but only because Van Saar rolled nothing but 1's and melted himself with Unstable to boot.

 

[TopsyKretts]

You have some anecdotes that show that some gangs can win and be fun to play. The most valuable result regardless of probability is to have fun and possibly memorable games. As discussed other places, unfortunately the game is not most likely to shine the most in terms of balance (and arguably in terms of enjoyment). Which is IMO a missed opportunity. Any game with probabilities can crash and burn in the worst possible ways, however a good game is designed in such a way that the bad outcomes are less likely. I would argue several bad outcomes are more probable than not in Necromunda.

 

[Scabs]

Of course, this is only anecdotal, but most of my games are balanced, and even if they are not, typical most of my games are fun. Only yesterday I played a game that probability said I should have won (800 GR advantage). After crew selection he had a slight advantage in fighters on the field. Alas, in the first two turns (before my reinforcements arrive), after failing to hit or wound with my first eight shots at targets in the open, having three fighters go OOA (two in Recovery), followed by failing a Bottle check and my Leader then (intelligently) fleeing the battlefield...I did not achieve the probably outcome. Still, despite my steadily increasing despair, it was more fun than any chores on my wife's "Honey do" list. So, despite a frustrating loss, still a win for me! My personal participation trophy.

 

[Stompzilla]

Of course, this is only anecdotal, but most of my games are balanced, and even if they are not, typical most of my games are fun. Only yesterday I played a game that probability said I should have won (800 GR advantage). After crew selection he had a slight advantage in fighters on the field. Alas, in the first two turns (before my reinforcements arrive), after failing to hit or wound with my first eight shots at targets in the open, having three fighters go OOA (two in Recovery), followed by failing a Bottle check and my Leader then (intelligently) fleeing the battlefield...I did not achieve the probably outcome. Still, despite my steadily increasing despair, it was more fun than any chores on my wife's "Honey do" list. So, despite a frustrating loss, still a win for me! My personal participation trophy.

It do be like that!

 

[Scabs]

A month later, and I post elsewhere a brilliant dissertation on the Outcasts shortcomings. Alas, they are Chaos Cult without the Chaos infusion, Genestealer Cult without the Genestealer infection, and Venators without the Bounty Hunter advantages. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

 

[EAfirstlast]

outcast gangs really aren't for power, but you can find power in them if you abuse the choose your own leader choices

 

[AgeOfSlaanesh]

Outcasts, in my experience, even when not built as broken, are a very powerful gang--one of the top tier gangs.

 

[TopsyKretts]

What makes them particularly powerful in your opinion?

 

[AgeOfSlaanesh]

What makes them particularly powerful in your opinion?

So, putting aside affiliations, there are two extremes to build across a spectrum, dependent on the leader build: on one extreme of the spectrum, a strong powerful leader and few cheap bodies, or, on the other side of the spectrum, a cheap leader with lots of cheap bodies. The first extreme will be a leader who is tooled up and cause some serious damage the second extreme will see the ability to out activate most other gangs, with the exception of Cawdor of Chaos cults.

There is also the flexibility to choose your skills, through the archetypes, for the leader and champ so that they can compliment each other.

And, they have a really good tactics deck, especially the D3+2 extra hive scum card.

Even if you went with a mid cost leader and a mid amount of bodies, the leader profile with 4+ Willpower, as psyker, and Hallucinations power, is very powerful.

All of this above is not even factoring in being able to give your gangers Web pistols by being affiliated with Delaque. Or, having Kal Jericho as a leader.

 

[Tiktaalik]

This is something I have noticed as well, AgeOfSlaanesh. Since playing a few More games with outcasts they seem to do best when you bring a ton of bodies. The Old Faithful tactic Card has turned the tide of battle more than once and I am looking forward to trying a different leader build for my next campaign.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Not sure if it is a good sign that tactics cards consistently "turning the tide of battle"... or being part of what makes a gang "good". It certainly is a natural and acceptable part of a game like Underworlds. It would be appalling for a game like Blood Bowl. I would sort of wish Necromunda cards would bring some medium light weight effects or random events to shake things up a little. There are 463 tactics now so I wouldn't even know where to start in order to make any sort of rating or power judgement.

 

[Tiktaalik]

that card turned the tide of battle becausewith the campaign rules that we were using, being able to magically pull a plasma gun out of your pocket is really powerful (because you couldn’t just go to the trading Post and buy one). I use the outcast cards and have tried the underdog ones once and I think the cards in general add a lot to the game. Most all other players have their respective cards and it seems to be more or less balanced.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Not sure if it is a good sign that tactics cards consistently "turning the tide of battle"... or being part of what makes a gang "good". It certainly is a natural and acceptable part of a game like Underworlds. It would be appalling for a game like Blood Bowl. I would sort of wish Necromunda cards would bring some medium light weight effects or random events to shake things up a little. There are 463 tactics now so I wouldn't even know where to start in order to make any sort of rating or power judgement.

Like it or not, I think of it like this: what we see on tactics cards must be assumed to be a gang special rule, because that's where the design space used to be for some of these things. Like it or not, they need to be considered part of a gang's overall rules (at least the ones printed with the gang, the first round of cards are obsolete).

 

[TopsyKretts]

I sort of get what you mean, but at the same time, there are no clear definitions for the terms you mention. What you may think of as 2nd round, not all gangs have that. Some gangs have 2nd and 3rd round. Examples:

• Chaos doesn't have a table of 18 tactics.
• Orlock has 2 separate tables of 18 tactics.

There's no system, structure or parity here to make such definitions viable. Also, nothing is strictly "obsolete", you can combine cards from all "rounds" if you want.