Outlanders Community Edition (OCE)

Anthony

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It's still very much a work in progress and nothing is set in stone so feel free to ramble about whatever you don't like, including minor gripes.

//edit
The OCE will now be updated as part of the NCE.
 
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cardyfreak

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Re: OCE indev

Great work so far, I'm skimming through it bit by bit. One thing I reckon should be changed should be the bounty on dead outlaws. I reckon it should be half the cost of the outlaw, but alive is full cost. I've had it recently where two of my guys were killed and my opponent was rolling in it. Being punished twice for losing half my gang is a pain in the arse!
And in reality, would a corpse be worth as much as an alive person ready to face justice? Outlaws were usually worth more alive!
 
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obar

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Re: OCE indev

Great work Anthony! I will read this through more thoroughly later, but I've found some things that I'm wondering about.

The rare trade chart is very different from the original (No bionics, power weapons, no carapace, added ammo) and a lot of stuff will be much harder to get ahold of, except when you roll up merchant contact. Whats the motivation for this change?
Archeothech lifter: What happens if I move down more then I'm allowed? Do I test for falling or is it impossible?
Stinger mould patch: is this added to the gang stash or an individual fighter? Is only he able to use it? (I can't see a change to it from the first edition, but it is still unclear to me)
The outlaw scenario table uses wording more like the NCE (lower gang rating rather than the outlaw gang) how come? I like this change though

Great work as allways!
 

Malo

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Elaborated on thread subject and stickied if that's ok.

Will definitely need a good read through, something for the tablet and couch this weekend (amidst the little ones climbing all over me).

Side-effects for Spook indicates 2 or 12 or if a double is rolled which is redundant. Only need to state if a double is rolled.
 

Sharkforce

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Jul 23, 2012
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(pages are based on the PDF page, not the number at the bottom of each page. for the eventual final release, it would be nice to make those match, but obviously that's just cosmetic and largely not important at this time).

page 3:

"trophoes" should be trophies.

page 4:

"none of the modifiers above have ever applied to you" in the outlaw table modifiers; is it intended only if your gang is less than 2k rating, and has never dropped below 1k? possibly also clarify that over 2k and over 3k don't stack. also clarify if it means you've ever done those things, or only if you've been reported in a scenario where you did those things.

page 5:

collecting income: is there any intention to introduce rules for income gained from sources other than territories and foraging? ie do you get full value from scavenged stuff, giant-killer bonus, etc? also, for gambling den, is the drawback also cut in half? are money-related advantages also cut in half (eg getting bonus credits from scavenger tokens). additionally, NCE added rules about injuries and being available for this job. a specific statement would make it absolutely clear that such does not change for outlaws, but is not strictly necessary.

gaining territory: is it intended for an outlander gang to be able to ever capture a legitimate territory, or is this just something you're leaving to each individual gang write-up?

page 6:

starving: do we want any special rules for recovering from starvation, or is it just an instant recovery to fully fed status as soon as fed? also, rather than the end of the post-game sequence, did you intend that extra bit of text about not starving your gang to come into play before buying new equipment and/or members? as it stands, if i'm not mistaken you can choose to blow all your money on equipment and then still let someone starve... not sure if that's intended.

bounty: does this require turning over the outlaw's equipment as well, in the case of captives? (hmmm... i see this is cleared up in the next paragraph on captured outlaws... maybe could be tweaked, but probably not super-important).

captured: possibly clarify if trading captives 1:1 is required (if possible) as it is between house gangs. i don't think this is intended to change the default rule, but it could be read as such.

guild price: do you decide to keep the old territory before or after rolling for new ones? or, in other words, do you get to choose to keep your one territory and roll 4 more, or do you roll 5, see what you get, and get rid of whichever one you like the least?

persistent offenders: this may make it nearly impossible to ever recover from being outlawed if you don't pay off your price very early on. not sure if that's a bad thing or not, mind you.

page 7: scrofulous wastes: ok, wastes already suck pretty badly. is it necessary to make them suck even worse by making foraging so awful?

fungus grotto: "those that eaten..." should be "those that have eaten".

rad zone: i think it would be more grammatically correct for the last bit to read "and no income is collected". but this is not exactly a big deal.

sludge sea: if the ganger (or equivalent) dies, do you get to keep their equipment?

it may also be good to clarify how fixer interacts with all of these things. or, more accurately, with the sludge sea and maybe the fungus grotto (in the case of the fungus grotto, i'm guessing it would be "not at all"). also maybe for the power tap; can you only choose to reroll one of those rolls, or if you wanted could you reroll both? or does it force you to reroll both, and only rerolling one is impossible?

page 8:

blood spill massacre is currently the blood spill massacra

recruiting hired guns: "... wanderers who are willing..." (the "are" is missing).

just a thought, but possibly for gangs that just want to capture people, an alternate version of the bounty hunter might be an interesting addition.

trading: possible clarification as to whether gangs can also trade between each other (if they so desire).

gangers and trading: one instance of "rate" instead of "rare".

rare trade chart: there is redundant information about being able to send more gangers. since you generally strike through anything you remove, i'm not sure there's any point in changing this, however.

possible optional rule: at present, the gang is always offered d3 items. it would make sense if they could forgo that, if for example they know they don't have the creds to buy anything they want and therefore have no reason to even go to the outlaw trading post at all. potentially they could even only want to go for common items.

something else i noticed: as it stands, it appears that outlawed gangs no longer have to care about house weapon lists. it somewhat makes sense, and doesn't remotely compensate for the drawbacks of being an outlaw gang over all, but you may wish to make a specific mention one way or the other (that it should, or that it shouldn't - i'm inclined to think it shouldn't).

page 9:

rumour: possible optional: pay d6 credits to get the +/- 1, or don't pay and you get nothing? only get the rumour if you can afford to pay for it?

tip-off: is gone. not sure if that's really a problem, it's basically the same thing as a rumour anyways. just mentioning.

25: armour - no carapace?

no bionics at all? they're selling to pit slave gangs as well, are they not?

alright, that's as far as i got for now. i'll carry on from page 10 later.
 

Santos

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May 31, 2013
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I don't want to come across as whiny but why the changes to the archoetech making it transferable?
even at the max 60 credits (or min 10 credits) all its possibilities (other than 1) are better than its more common counterparts which generally cost more. Locking it to a ganger balanced this well. Juves and meatfodder members will inevitably unlock the device ability and then it gets transferred to prized fighters, no real risk.

Also compact weapons
- removing the pistol ability of the weapon takes out a huge attraction, it made a full size range weapon without penalties in close combat. (ie a compact plasma archeotech + sword is better than a plasma gun+pistol+sword)
-boltgun ability should be there, perharps result 1 and autoslugger 2
-always interpreted that the grenadelauncher+frag was a device with equivalent statline so it couldn't use other grenades. 'Boompistol'
-self maintaining special weapons that can be passed around at will to anyone regardless of speciliast skill is very overpowered as it will be constantly passed to the highest BS.

Arcarna result. Love it.

---

Sludge Sea territory. Really feel there still needs to be a dead result possibility to reflect the perilous nature of diving in sludge filled with tentacle horrors etc. Maybe you could make it 1-3 dead 4-6 injured or similar. Specify Dead results you can keep the models equipment. No one goes diving with guns strapped to their back. The strip down and
 

Sharkforce

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Jul 23, 2012
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Santos said:
Sludge Sea territory. Really feel there still needs to be a dead result possibility to reflect the perilous nature of diving in sludge filled with tentacle horrors etc. Maybe you could make it 1-3 dead 4-6 injured or similar. Specify Dead results you can keep the models equipment. No one goes diving with guns strapped to their back. The strip down and

you're rolling serious injuries if you do badly. that's a chance of death.
 

Santos

Gang Champion
May 31, 2013
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sharkface said:
Santos said:
Sludge Sea territory. Really feel there still needs to be a dead result possibility to reflect the perilous nature of diving in sludge filled with tentacle horrors etc. Maybe you could make it 1-3 dead 4-6 injured or similar. Specify Dead results you can keep the models equipment. No one goes diving with guns strapped to their back. The strip down and

you're rolling serious injuries if you do badly. that's a chance of death.

didn't think of it like that.. good point
 

Blood Donor

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Hope Ratskins get Totem Warriors, Shamans, Hive Spirit Powers, Coup Sticks and Spirit Weapons. Really liked these additions to Ratskins. Coup Sticks are more characterful than an all out advantage, similar for Spirit Weapons which help make Ratskins more of the ambush style H2H combat centric gang they are. Not sure if the spirit powers would need reworking if Ratskins get the whole package to keep them from being over-powered...

The Seminary is a Redemptionist specific territory that adds to their character; any chance more of these gang specific style outlaw territories could be in place to strengthen the individual flavours of these gangs? Maybe a Scavvies could roll up Brown University 8).... Futurama reference, not trying to offend any Yakkers in Providence
 
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Anthony

Community Edition Editor
Jun 2, 2011
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Re: OCE indev

Cheers chaps, I'll go through the niggles over the weekend and try and update the PDF.

cardyfreak said:
One thing I reckon should be changed should be the bounty on dead outlaws. I reckon it should be half the cost of the outlaw, but alive is full cost. I've had it recently where two of my guys were killed and my opponent was rolling in it. Being punished twice for losing half my gang is a pain in the arse!
And in reality, would a corpse be worth as much as an alive person ready to face justice? Outlaws were usually worth more alive!
Ah yeah I forgot about the capture stuff, I wasn't really sure what to do with it since I dislike most of it. It's pretty silly how killing a starting Ratskin would net you more than working an Archeotech Hoard and it's not like House gangs need the extra income which can also imbalance the campaign. Also how do the Watchmen know a particular outlaw is dead and who killed him without direct evidence which they would rarely get.

I was thinking of changing them so the bounty is just equivalent to their experience points which I think makes more sense from a fluff perspective and stops a situation where say an outlaw heavy nets you a silly bounty just because he was holding an autocannon. Captures would work in exactly the same way as regular captures, you get to keep their equipment and selling them to the Watchmen nets D6x5cr plus the bounty. Half bounty on dead outlaws is a nice idea, though not sure if it should just be dropped altogether.

obar said:
The rare trade chart is very different from the original (No bionics, power weapons, no carapace, added ammo) and a lot of stuff will be much harder to get ahold of, except when you roll up merchant contact. Whats the motivation for this change?
I think the only items removed where the power weapons, bionics, carapace and the bio-scanner, in part to make way for the new items though I think fluff-wise it would be nice to create more separation between the two trading posts (i.e. the high-tech stuff only appearing on the regular one). Though I guess the carapace would make a nice trophy for outlaws now that I think about it. I just can't imagine anybody trusting an outlaw bio-surgeon and the conditions would make it barely survivable, plus it kinda makes pit slaves all the more special and I figure the stinger mould patch is essentially the outlaw version of bionics.

obar said:
The outlaw scenario table uses wording more like the NCE (lower gang rating rather than the outlaw gang) how come? I like this change though
Just for space reasons. I don't think it changes anything since it's always the lower gang rated gang that makes the Scenario roll anyway so it doesn't matter if the other gang is outlaw or not they will always be higher rated.

sharkface said:
also, rather than the end of the post-game sequence, did you intend that extra bit of text about not starving your gang to come into play before buying new equipment and/or members? as it stands, if i'm not mistaken you can choose to blow all your money on equipment and then still let someone starve... not sure if that's intended.
Yeah the loophole is intentional (note you still have to pay supplies immediately after rolling income), though I'm not sure about it. The idea is that you if roll up a nice rare item you can still sell equipment to buy it even if you have fighters starving.

sharkface said:
persistent offenders: this may make it nearly impossible to ever recover from being outlawed if you don't pay off your price very early on. not sure if that's a bad thing or not, mind you.
Hmm... yeah that's a good point. Would D6x5 still be a bit much? Or perhaps another clause could be added, say the outlaw gang must be the attackers in the scenario too, so scenarios like Scavengers wouldn't increase their bounty.

sharkface said:
page 7: scrofulous wastes: ok, wastes already suck pretty badly. is it necessary to make them suck even worse by making foraging so awful?
The idea is that it would balance making the rest of the rolls better. Generally I think the outlaws are still a bit better off now and they can now look for new territories. A complaint I have about the outlaw rules is that they are just a bit too erratic in terms of having just one lousy game will cripple you, so I was hoping having a slightly better territory system would help normalise them a bit.

sharkface said:
just a thought, but possibly for gangs that just want to capture people, an alternate version of the bounty hunter might be an interesting addition.
I was thinking of allowing kalma do this, it even says in its description that it's used to more easily capture people. The problem is that kalma is so cheap and common once you get a fixer that you could just load up half your gang with it. Either way kalma is pretty useless right now so I'd like to do something more with it.

Santos said:
I don't want to come across as whiny but why the changes to the archoetech making it transferable?
even at the max 60 credits (or min 10 credits) all its possibilities (other than 1) are better than its more common counterparts which generally cost more. Locking it to a ganger balanced this well.
Fluff-wise I just thought it's pretty strange how a fighter would refuse to say how the archeotech works, and is a little frustrating when the archeotech is entirely useless to the fighter who has it but could be incredibly useful to another fighter. I do agree about the balance though, especially in regard to compact weapons, though perhaps this is more of an issue that compact weapons are overpowered compared to the other archeotech.

Blood Donor said:
The Seminary is a Redemptionist specific territory that adds to their character; any chance more of these gang specific style outlaw territories could be in place to strengthen the individual flavours of these gangs?
Are you talking about having a territory table for every outlaw gang? Generally I guess you could always just interpret the outlaw territories as you see fit based on the gang.
 
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obar

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Oct 19, 2011
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Blood Donor said:
Hope Ratskins get Totem Warriors, Shamans, Hive Spirit Powers, Coup Sticks and Spirit Weapons. Really liked these additions to Ratskins. Coup Sticks are more characterful than an all out advantage, similar for Spirit Weapons which help make Ratskins more of the ambush style H2H combat centric gang they are. Not sure if the spirit powers would need reworking if Ratskins get the whole package to keep them from being over-powered...
Seconded. Would love to see that.
Anthony said:
sharkface said:
just a thought, but possibly for gangs that just want to capture people, an alternate version of the bounty hunter might be an interesting addition.
I was thinking of allowing kalma do this, it even says in its description that it's used to more easily capture people. The problem is that kalma is so cheap and common once you get a fixer that you could just load up half your gang with it. Either way kalma is pretty useless right now so I'd like to do something more with it.
How about adding a slave trader hired gun similar to the bounty hunter?

EDIT: Page 5 under becomming an outlaw, last paragraph. To me it is uncertain weither the word "skills" refer skills used in the post game, or when you work out experience.
 

Bruticus

Gang Champion
Aug 27, 2011
453
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I always felt that bounties and caravan raids were very broken, often netting 100s of creds for little effort if you got lucky. I'd like to see them both changed quite a lot.

I think claiming bounties on dead/captured outlaws leads to giant amounts of creds that seem disproportionate sometimes. Also it is slightly confusing that there is one system for a dead outlaw, one for a captured outlaw and a totally different bounty system on the Bounty Hunter table. Bounty Hunters are also overpowered versus outlaws as it is very easy to get a capture.

It'd be cool if there was one table for all of them, say if you turn in a living outlaw you roll once on the table to see his fate and get his XP in creds (his notoriety) and a dead outlaw is just the creds. The table could be unchanged from the NCE although outlaw gangs will find it hard to pay some of those fines.

I think Caravan Raid is still quite broken looking - the attacker could roll 12 people while the defender could roll 2. And as the defender is spread thin trying to cover a table edge sometimes the attacker can gang up on them. Pit Slave gangs (that get Hatred here) find it easy to just kill every thing. Caravan Raids can easily turn into massacres where the defender can't run away and the attackers make 100s of creds. Suggestions: either use the caravan raid scenario by ArbiterGeneral (in the library) or add some new element like a time limit (defender rolls for reinforcements, defender rolls to see if caravan escapes, etc). Reduce how random the number of defenders is (eg. D6+6).

I think removing the ability to use compact archeotech guns as pistols is a good idea, speaking as someone that got an archeotech meltapistol on a leader that pretty much dominated the campaign. Too good! Maybe don't call it compact, rather lightweight or master-crafted. I'd quite like to see even more items on this table, there is a pdf of more archeotech somewhere.

For Kalma, how about letting you take a dose at any time and making it increase the chance of recovery (flesh wound on a 1-3 or something) to represent being so doped they don't notice the injury. Would lead to downed people taking it, recovering and being in a morphine daze for a few turns which would be funny.

Maybe pit slaves could get a chance to roll bionic results (say, any double on a rare trade roll means they can get a bionic as they have fashioned one from scrap parts). I like that other outlaws can't get them.

PS. I like the idea of more hired guns specifically for outlaws, a slave trader fits well. But I suspect Anthony is not looking to add new stuff, just refine existing stuff.
 

Anthony

Community Edition Editor
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In principle I don't mind the idea of adding another hired gun since there's only two right now, but I don't find a slaver all that interesting really and could be abused by scavvies and Redemptionists. The only vaguely interesting one that springs to mind is a tainted priest who stands a good chance of being a mutant and has the same emboldening aura as a leader, which could be pretty useful for small hth groups.

The aim of the Caravan changes was to make it so statistically you're financially better off picking Loot & Pillage, it's just that the Caravan has the potential for more so it's the desperate or powerful gangs that choose it. The 2D6 plays into this and to me feels like it better represents the frantic and blind luck nature of a caravan raid. 75% of the time you're going to roll 6+ fighters anyway, but I guess some sort of reinforcement system for the defenders might be good, so the less fighters they start with the greater chance of a few reinforcements showing up on a random flank table edge. Maybe allow the defenders to choose the table edge too so they can setup some good firing positions. But yeah, any changes are going to need a lot of playtesting really.

Yeah the bio-booster kalma idea sounds nice, though again it would have to be pretty rubbish for 5 credits. I dunno, perhaps drugs in general should cost more, perhaps with a random cost element too, or just add a chance of kalma addiction...
 

Sharkforce

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well, given that with drugs 1 purchase = 1 use, i don't consider it to be that big of a deal. it's certainly cheaper in the short term, but if you're using it a whole bunch of times it's going to eat through your money real quick.
 

Santos

Gang Champion
May 31, 2013
359
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Sydney - Australia
Re: OCE indev

Anthony said:
Cheers chaps, I'll go through the niggles over the weekend and try and update the PDF.

cardyfreak said:
One thing I reckon should be changed should be the bounty on dead outlaws. I reckon it should be half the cost of the outlaw, but alive is full cost. I've had it recently where two of my guys were killed and my opponent was rolling in it. Being punished twice for losing half my gang is a pain in the arse!
And in reality, would a corpse be worth as much as an alive person ready to face justice? Outlaws were usually worth more alive!
Ah yeah I forgot about the capture stuff, I wasn't really sure what to do with it since I dislike most of it. It's pretty silly how killing a starting Ratskin would net you more than working an Archeotech Hoard and it's not like House gangs need the extra income which can also imbalance the campaign. Also how do the Watchmen know a particular outlaw is dead and who killed him without direct evidence which they would rarely get.

I was thinking of changing them so the bounty is just equivalent to their experience points which I think makes more sense from a fluff perspective and stops a situation where say an outlaw heavy nets you a silly bounty just because he was holding an autocannon. Captures would work in exactly the same way as regular captures, you get to keep their equipment and selling them to the Watchmen nets D6x5cr plus the bounty. Half bounty on dead outlaws is a nice idea, though not sure if it should just be dropped altogether.

Funny that the average bounty for heavies and leaders is often the gangs total guild price.

I believe the ridiculous bounties was partly to offset that its not pure profit and it scales on the general income table. An outlaw heavy with some serious Xp, a heavy stubber etc would still average only 50 credits alone. Juves and gangers give very little unless they have high XP +equipment.
Add all the other territories income and you 'spend' more and actually get even less from the bounty. Captives that you keep the equipment for don't get bounties they are 'just slaves' , in this instance its up to the gang to decide if the equipment is worth keeping more than the bounty

Given that outlaws incomes streams are 100% profit (200% if they looting) this isn't to bad, maybe on the surface it seems a little retarded but bounty rules aren't 'broke'. There has to be an incentive to not be outlawed or to get out of being outlawed status. Upkeep of 3 credits per model is so much better economically than the income tables which only able-bodied gangers can work territories.

With income tables earning more in a territory doesn't necessarily equate to more in the stash.
 
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Anthony

Community Edition Editor
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Hmm... I wonder if it's more to do with just the outlaw scenarios being so overpowered that during playtesting it created a sort of arms race between house gangs and outlanders. Both The Hit and Loot & Pillage are extremely skewed towards the attacker, though weirdly in The Hit if the attackers win then you can just choose not to work any territories so they get nothing. Loot & Pillage doesn't seem to serve a purpose other than being a much better version of Scavengers against house gangs and I'm not sure what the point of The Hunters is.

Perhaps for Loot & Pillage the purpose could be more about stealing whatever the other gang has in their stash, so each loot counter would either be a random item from their stash or just a bundle of 2D6 credits (which would come out of their income but they'd still get it even if their income doesn't cover it and the bit about looting a territory would be dropped). For The Hit instead of the 50% of income perhaps it would just allow you to 'work' one of their territories (outlaws would get full income from it, not half, and the bit about capturing would be left in). It would make the scenarios much more situational but it would give then a unqiue purpose rather just being basically more profitable versions of existing scenarios. Maybe just drop The Hunters altogether I don't know.
 

Santos

Gang Champion
May 31, 2013
359
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Sydney - Australia
I think that's a chicken/egg thing. Ultimately non-outlaws benefit from outlaws deaths/captures more than the other way round. 3 out of 4 scenarios are not Outlaw specific. The last Caravan is only playable outlaw vs un-outlaw. Being skewered to the attacker is not a game design fault, who ever wins the toss of the scenario table can pick the scenario. That's how it works and its often in favour of the lower-gang rating force. With two normal gangs a significantly lower gang rating gang would not go gang fight or scavengers. They would select a hit & run, shoot out or ambush. (well they should be and the have 3 other options with outlaw scenarios)

There need to be polarity in the scenarios, occasionally luck will favour the higher gang rating so they can stomp the lower as an attacker. Generally though as the lower gang rating surpasses the higher rating gang with the dirty tactics of scenario exploitation the tables will turn and the former will dish out the latter's own medicine.

If you nerf scenarios too much all you do is harm the campaign underdog more than curb the Top dogs outright dominance.

Hunters/ The Hit / Loot & Pillage all can be non-outlaw attackers. The -3 modifier might discourage some but there are also plus modifiers one might have so sometimes its worth the risk. Shout-Out gives you a -2 modifier so -3 isn't a big step up to pick a scenario where you have more to gain from the encounter. Also outlaws can't report non-outlaws so picking the scenarios to attack outlaws is always a good idea.

Hunters is an expansion on the shoot-out scenario mixed with ambush. Lets you bring everyone to the fight and possibly shoot yourself in the foot.

The Hit absolutely rocks, why would you pick a gang fight against outlaws!
Extorting money isn't worth not working all your territories. The extortion is one territory not all of them.
The Hit is good to take the outlaws down a notch, especially if they profited in a previous caravan run.

Loot & Pillage is a one sided scavenger scenario. As the loot counters come out of your income not your profit it doesn't hurt non-outlaw gangs much at all. Especially with bounty you can still benefit. Again outlaws looting each other is where it hurts the most. Again if I had a non-outlaw gang I would be constantly picking this against outlaws to cripple their economy.

Caravan: Recently wrote about it in the Tactica section of the forum.

As its always the lowest gang rating who rolls on their own scenario table. (Normal/Outlaw) You don't get the problem of higher outlaw gangs trolling non-outlaw gangs. Without bounties the arms race would certainly favour the outlaws.
 
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jimjimjimmyjim

Gang Hero
Apr 2, 2013
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My group have been play testing some tweaks to loot and pillage.

The main rule change of the scenario is the defending models are able to grab the loot after the first turn and attempt to get it off the table from the deployment zone opposite the attackers zone.

Everything else seems good, we have just found the scenario to seem a bit rigged in the attackers favour.