Outlanders Community Edition (OCE)

jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
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Maitland, Florida
I posted this earlier in the wrong thread, so I'll add it again here: Just a quick note on a typo I found. On page 27 in the description of the Caravan Raid, it mentions that the guilders hire local gangers. The text instead says guilders hire focal gangers.

Also, very glad to have this wonderful updated addition. The Ratksin section was a bit of a disappointment. Where did the tomahawks go? They were a cute, flavorful ranged weapon for the Totem Warriros. Also, and I know the tide is against me on this, but what's with Ratskins losing access to the lasgun? Plenty of the original metal models have them....since the lasgun is basically the AK-47 of the 40K universe, it seems reasonable that the Ratskins would be able to get them to work.
 

ineptmule

Gang Hero
Feb 17, 2011
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Oh man, don't go there. I'm with you on both but the tide is definitely against us.

The reasoning behind the Tomahawk is that it's functionally identical to the hand bow, I think? If that's truly the case I'd rather get rid of the bow, because that item's always seemed a bit goofy to me.

As for the lasgun, yeah, I don't see why ratties can't have them. Especially seeing as a large proportion of the original Ratskin models are equipped with lasguns...
 

Anthony

Community Edition Editor
Jun 2, 2011
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I do like the idea of there being a technological difference with outlanders. I think it's the Outlander novel where they mention coming across a plasma pistol in a backwards trading post was incredibly rare which I though was a neat concept. Autoguns and shotguns are solid chunks of metal which are robust enough to deal with the rigours outlanders place on them, where as las weapons have intricate circuitry requiring specialist parts and equipment to repair. Ratskins are also superstitious and untrusting of hiver technologies.

If you use the scaly throwing axe profile then tomahawks are just awful weapons unless you have a very high Strength, and as ineptmule says they serve the same role as handbows.
 
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Shadowbadger

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Sep 22, 2014
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I have an unrelated question for the Spyrers going up-hive mechanic.

What happens if I have a captured enemy ganger?

Do I have to stay down for the rescue or can I just let him go?

edit: I have completed my vow.
 
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ineptmule

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Feb 17, 2011
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Is that really the case with lasguns though? I thought they were particularly favoured because they were incredibly reliable, can be charged in a fire, blah blah blah.

Ratties already can't have any special weapons of any kind so taking away lasguns too feels like a punitive and arbitrary decision to me.
 

jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
11
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38
Maitland, Florida
I get the point on the tomahawk, but I'm with Ineptmule on lasguns. Plasma pistols may be tough to come by, but the fluff is very clear that plasma weapons are rare and finicky at best. The rare trade chart for Outlanders has things like meltabombs and a 1-in-66 chance of finding tech from the Dark Age of Technology, but lasguns can't be purchased easily? I have trouble understanding that when, as Ineptmule correctly pointed out, they are the most common gun in the galaxy, famed for their ease of use and maintenance. The entire reason the Guard uses them is that across hundreds of worlds, from savage worlds to hive worlds, they can be cranked out without too much trouble, shoved into the hand of all kinds of humans with all kinds of technological expertise, and sent into the fight knowing they will more or less always works. They're the AK-47 of 40K, and as such I don't see them as complex, tough-to-maintain devices the same as a plasma pistol, or a bolt gun.

At a certain point Necromunda is sci-fi, and while what weapons gangs get or don't get can come down to feel, Ratskins managing to own and maintain the common, easy to keep working lasgun seems reasonable, certainly compared to assault rifles as represented by the autogun which presumably would require all kinds of gunsmithing to keep in working order. That, coupled with the gobs of metal Ratskins packing lasguns already show the game creators didn't have any issues with lasguns in the hands of Ratskins, as compared to say, Scavvies. Anyway, it's a pretty minor point, and easily fixed with a house rule. It's interesting to discuss it, however.
 

ineptmule

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Feb 17, 2011
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I think part of it was wanting not to give Ratties easy access to 2+ ammo rolls for... reasons. I feel Ratties are hit pretty heavily by recent changes to their rules and when @BeardLegend tried to run them in our campaign they were beaten absolutely hollow several games in a row and seem now to be something of a spent force. Now some of that may down to him, I'm not sure ;)

Anyway, if the aim is not to allow Ratties access to 2+ ammo rolls you could easily slip a clause in to their rules to say that due to a lack of access to reliable power sources, they are forced more often than not to rely on the charging-in-the-fire method for lasgun power packs and so Rattie lasguns pass ammo rolls on a 3+.

If they remain at 25 credits that feels like both a flavourful amendment and a sufficient discouraging factor to Ratskins taking oodles of them (which for some reason seems like a thing most people in the Ratskin rules thread didn't want.)
 
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BeardLegend

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I think part of it was wanting not to give Ratties easy access to 2+ ammo rolls for... reasons. I feel Ratties are hit pretty heavily by recent changes to their rules and when @BeardLegend tried to run them in our campaign they were beaten absolutely hollow several games in a row and seem now to be something of a spent force. Now some of that may down to him, I'm not sure ;)

Anyway, if the aim is not to allow Ratties access to 2+ ammo rolls you could easily slip a clause in to their rules to say that due to a lack of access to reliable power sources, they are forced more often than not to rely on the charging-in-the-fire method for lasgun power packs and so Rattie lasguns pass ammo rolls on a 3+.

If they remain at 25 credits that feels like both a flavourful amendment and a sufficient discouraging factor to Ratskins taking oodles of them (which for some reason seems like a thing most people in the Ratskin rules thread didn't want.)
- Lasguns on Ratskins - I understand why A-Case was reticent to include them, despite the fact that the original models had 3 Ratskin models that are equipped with them. It's fluffy ... but Necro fluff is quite bendable.

- Ratskin Efficiency - First time using them and I'm running them under OCE rules. I've learned a lot about running outlaw gangs from the four games that i've played, though I fear ineptmule is right ... I ran them into the ground over 4 games. 1 more might see them defunct if I don't win and win big! Here's hoping though.

- Alternatives to Lasgun Rules - You could run it that lasguns are included in their list without any worry. It doesn't give them much advantage, really. Youcould also do as ineptmule says, as it seems fluffy.

- Ratskin Fears - A lot of the people who chip in seem to argue from theoretical, yet logical, perspectives as opposed to genuine playtesting experience. There's a rule of thumb that the best constructed (well written and least offensive) argument will win through, even if the people making those arguments haven't playtested to any degree, the perspectives that they champion/endorse.
 

jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
11
22
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38
Maitland, Florida
The more I think about lasguns, the more random it seems who gets them and who doesn't. Redemptionists never had easy access to them in the past. Why on earth was that? These are guys being armed and supplied from Uphive, of course they should have had plenty of lasguns. I seem to remember the Deacons could take a lasgun...I vaguely remember giving a Deacon one as I waited to save up cash for something with a bigger punch. Looking at the new edition, it seems Redemptionists can now take lasguns...maybe they stole them from the Ratskins? I don't think lasguns are so amazing that giving them to Ratskins in some way breaks the game...though if I had my way the lasgun would lose its -1 armor save. This makes armor marginally better, and makes sense fluff-wise as lasguns are supposed to be very dangerous to exposed flesh, but lousy at penetrating armor.
 
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Anthony

Community Edition Editor
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I have an unrelated question for the Spyrers going up-hive mechanic.

What happens if I have a captured enemy ganger?

Do I have to stay down for the rescue or can I just let him go?

edit: I have completed my vow.
I don't think it conflicts with any rules does it? You go uphive, come back down then play the Rescue next time the two gangs meet. I guess it's a bit strange fluff-wise but you could imagine they stow the prisoner somewhere or parade him uphive.
 

Tomcaet

Gang Champion
Nov 9, 2014
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Łapy, Poland
I imagine energy weapon armour to be a bit different than physical contact armour, and while it would be possible to incorporate protectiveness for both, it's unpractical - hence the lasgun armour penetration, armour is generally unprepared for them.

For lasguns on Ratskins from fluff perspective - I wouldn't say lasguns are the AK-47 of 40k. Not sure what to give as a counterexample, what I'm thinking is, ~everybody has one, ~everybody can use or quickly learn to use it, barely anybody knows how it works and/or can make their own. Firearms can be made sense of by disassembling them, maybe proxying some parts - that's the AK-47, and I think some Autoguns in 40k. I imagine disassembling a lasgun would uncover some high precision optics, electric and electronic parts. Intimidating. If Ratskins don't trust the hivers and their contraptions - lack of lasguns can be justified by fluff.

I can't say too much on the gameplay - Ratskin Fears, didn't play as them. When playing against - you hope for not too rough Treacherous Conditions and don't count too much on inflicting injuries, all Ratskins have a built-in Medic. You also hope not to get on the business end of a Spirit Totem and that their gear and abilities don't surprise you too much. They don't seem to pack much firepower (except a bit in melee) but wouldn't they be very hard to really put down in a campaign? With Resilient, and waiting to really strike occasionally in some advantageous Treacherous Conditions?
 

Shadowbadger

Gang Hero
Sep 22, 2014
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I don't think it conflicts with any rules does it? You go uphive, come back down then play the Rescue next time the two gangs meet. I guess it's a bit strange fluff-wise but you could imagine they stow the prisoner somewhere or parade him uphive.
Thanks, was not sure if I had missed something.

Edit: I now have a fluff picture of a prisoner held at arms length by the neck, the whole way up-hive, or slung over a Malcs shoulder in a web sack.
 
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trollmeat

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Why would they bring their prisoner back down with them?

I'd assume the any rescue attempt would have to be made before returning Uphive.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necromunda_(planet) said:
Necromunda is a hive world in Segmentum Solar, and a major producer of munitions for the Imperial Guard. Necromunda's forges produce lasguns,autoguns, shotguns and boltguns, among other weapons...
I've not played against Ratskins since Outlanders, so have no idea of their balance anymore, just thought I'd throw that first line from lexicanum in there :)
 
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Shadowbadger

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@trollmeat, perhaps they bring the prisoner up-hive to show off. They have completed their vow and in doing so captured someone at the exact same time. They are that good.

They have no use for the prisoner up-hive after the initial novelty. But on their next hunt they can use him to set a trap, which is the only reason Spyre Hunters capture people in the first place.
 
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jmw23

Juve
Aug 30, 2012
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Maitland, Florida
I imagine energy weapon armour to be a bit different than physical contact armour, and while it would be possible to incorporate protectiveness for both, it's unpractical - hence the lasgun armour penetration, armour is generally unprepared for them.

Fluff is fungible, and it changes over time. Still, from the Confrontation rules: "...Lasers are superficially damaging rather than penetrating weapons, although a laser hit to exposed flesh is often more dangerous than a hit from a projectile weapon. The most notable feature of the laser is its inability to pierce thick armor."


For lasguns on Ratskins from fluff perspective - I wouldn't say lasguns are the AK-47 of 40k. Not sure what to give as a counterexample, what I'm thinking is, ~everybody has one, ~everybody can use or quickly learn to use it, barely anybody knows how it works and/or can make their own. Firearms can be made sense of by disassembling them, maybe proxying some parts - that's the AK-47, and I think some Autoguns in 40k. I imagine disassembling a lasgun would uncover some high precision optics, electric and electronic parts. Intimidating. If Ratskins don't trust the hivers and their contraptions - lack of lasguns can be justified by fluff.?
I've got to disagree on this one. From the rulebook:
"Laser weapons are manufactured in vast quantities in the hive city and are exported to the armed forces of the Imperium throughout the galaxy. Lasguns are traded in Underhive settlements and the Guilders bring shipments from the factories above. Power packs come from the same source and some are made locally. Supplies of parts are plentiful and repairs easily effected. Laser technology is reliable and easy to replicate, and although the weapons are not the most powerful they are certainly the most trustworthy."

This sounds exactly like an AK-47 to me. Outlanders makes it very clear Ratskins are perfectly willing to trade with night caravans and unscrupulous Guilders, and Ratskins can't have too much trouble with using stuff from Uphive such as Meltabombs and all the other goodies from the rare trade chart. Presumably the Guilders and night caravans have loads of lasguns for sale. As for your concerns about complexity, I'm not sure that a simple lasgun is any more complicated than a rifle in the 41st millenium. It's been a while, but I think the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is clear on this point...lasguns have to be easy to use, disassemble, and maintain, or they wouldn't be the weapon of the Guard. I don't think you're right in your statement that barely anyone can figure out how to make a lasgun. This isn't an Ordinatus of Mars. Lasguns can't be hard to make, as according to the fluff, Necromunda churns them out for export in vast quantities.

As I said, fluff changes, and we can find whatever we need to support all kinds of different, even contradictory statements. Gameplay has to come first. If there is some legitimate reason why Ratskins can't take lasguns, that's fine. Personally, I don't see one. If there is some strong reason to give lasguns -1 to armor, that's fine too. I always thought of that as a leftover from the conversion from 40K...a game where the -1 was necessary for the Guard to have any chance to win against Space Marines at the time. Lasguns are plenty good without the save modifier, and armor, at least in my small circle, is taken rarely enough due to loads of weapons totally negating the saves that this small adjustment seems like a good idea.
 

Tomcaet

Gang Champion
Nov 9, 2014
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Great post, I wasn't aware of how exactly are lasers portrayed in 40k, I mostly based on this.

Armour penetration on weapons unable to pierce armour... Odd.

Necromunda produces weapons, and a lot of spare parts fresh from the factories are available. That makes "repairs" easy, but I think the precision required for manufacturing those parts is far beyond Underhive capacity. Las weapons can be hard to make, it's just automated uphive, and so mass-produced. Well, if you got the parts already then you probably can assemble them. Lack of moving elements makes them reliable, science involved isn't xenotech, so easy to replicate. The difficulties might only be in my feeble 3rd millenium mind. :p Still, not AK.

Ratskins sure can use lasguns and can buy them, although not as easily. They do prefer to keep away from the hivers, not really sure about the Renegades' exact position on that, though. Were lasguns to be added to the Ratskin Weapon List, they would be the most high-tech piece there, wouldn't they? I won't argue that it would be a bad thing from either gameplay or fluff perspective, just that lack of them is not nonsense.
 

SomeHairyGuy

Ganger
Jul 8, 2014
185
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Winchester
My ratties have a couple lasguns and the campaign hasn't exactly derailed. I use them as a prize for my BS4 guys, when I can afford to send someone out to the trading post. Denying them to Ratskins is just another kick in the balls for a severely under-armed gang (I know that's the idea, them being a primitive tribal people and all, but you gotta draw a line somewhere).

EDIT (wiki): Ah, here we go...

Despite its lack of killing power, the Lasgun remained a favoured weapon of many an Imperial soldier, for it has many redeeming qualities. It is a solid and rugged weapon that remains reliable and precise in almost any environment, and requires very little maintenance: a quick cleanup while mumbling a prayer to the weapon's Machine Spirit* after usage is all that is needed to keep it going for over 10,000 shots, after which the focusing crystals must be replaced, an action that requires the intervention of a knowledgeable Tech-priest. Unlike a Flamer or a Meltagun, the Lasgun can be outfitted with a bayonet or used as a club at close quarters without risk of damaging the weapon, and it will never overheat with potentially fatal results for its operator like a dreaded Plasma Gun. Another redeeming quality of the Lasgun is that its power pack can be recharged by exposure to sunlight or by being put into a camp fire for a few minutes, ensuring that the weapon almost never runs out of ammunition, even on prolonged operations, or in situations where resupply is unlikely.

*(Hive spirits, perhaps? Either way, if you live to fire 10,000 shots in the Hive yo can probably afford a new gun.)

EDIT 2 (librarium online user post): "Lasguns have no moving parts (except possibly the trigger), almost never wear out with normal use and don't need cleaning except for the actual lens in the barrel. The lasing chamber/barrel will wear out only if one uses high-voltage settings, typically by using specially-designed batteries. (The main difference between a lasgun and a hellgun is that the latter is intended for those higher voltages--they last longer but the barrels still burn out.)"

Now tell me a ratty wouldn't want one of those?
 
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