Overseer skill overpowered?

[Commissariat]

As I said before, the group activation is but the best scenario but is not the focus. You are ignoring the consistent use of the skill. There is no such thing as wasting turns in Necromunda, you have a technical infinite amount of turns (or plenty of turns) in most scenarios. Though, in the nature of 48x48" maps, it doesn't take much with a 12" deployment to get your Overseer into a dominating position.

I do not think Overseer is OP (yet), mind you, but I do think that you are largely underestimating its power; not that it really matters to me when I come to think about it. Cheers!

Rule Design Wise:
It would be great if Overseer required Line of Sight though.... Having a 12" radius bubble is pretty ridiculous in not-"doing it wrong" necromunda boards.

 

[almic85]

As I said before, the group activation is but the best scenario but is not the focus. You are ignoring the consistent use of the skill. There is no such thing as wasting turns in Necromunda, you have a technical infinite amount of turns (or plenty of turns) in most scenarios. Though, in the nature of 48x48" maps, it doesn't take much with a 12" deployment to get your Overseer into a dominating position.

I do not think Overseer is OP (yet), mind you, but I do think that you are largely underestimating its power; not that it really matters to me when I come to think about it. Cheers!

Rule Design Wise:
It would be great if Overseer required Line of Sight though.... Having a 12" radius bubble is pretty ridiculous in not-"doing it wrong" necromunda boards.

We both agree the skill isn’t OP.

I’m just trying to point out to others that the perceived OP scenarios being raised are relatively niche (I.e. a Champion with rapid fire and a plasma gun in position to shot 1-4 targets worthy of such firepower in a turn).

Generally I think it’s a good skill that can have a significant benefit if used tactically.

I just don’t think it is any better than giving your Van Saar leader a plasma gun and the rapid fire rule or your Goliath leader a power sword and plasma pistol and true grit.

On Cawdor and Delaque leaders it could be better as their champions have better stats than the leaders, but to be “efficient” it need the rest of the gang built around it.

P.s. I also think building “efficient” gangs is boring as batshit and should be punished by the league commissioner, but that’s just me.

 

[Kairae]

It all depends on the league. But I think in Escher a CC orientated leader with Inspirational and Overseer is a solid and interesting build that fits the Gang’s aesthetic. When the battles is at range she keeps her head in cover yelling orders and encouragement, but if it’s close in she gets amongst it with the best of them. I’d be annoyed if I my Arbitrator went ‘nah ah, that’s ‘too efficient’’.

Most skills you only use once every third turn or so (Nerves of Steel, Spring Up and Dodge for example). So even if you only use Overseer once or twice a game it’s on par.

 

[pr01e]

I just don’t think it is any better than giving your Van Saar leader a plasma gun and the rapid fire rule or your Goliath leader a power sword and plasma pistol and true grit.

On Cawdor and Delaque leaders it could be better as their champions have better stats than the leaders, but to be “efficient” it need the rest of the gang built around it.

agreed, no one else's leader has 2+ Bs and 5+ save, so Van Saar is hurting their performance by overseeing a lot more than Cawdor with 4+ bs overseeing their 3+ BS champs.

Though I don't think "you have to build for it" is a good counter argument against a rule being accused of being overpowered. Once something is demonstrated to help more than other choices, even if you have to build around it, it just creates cookie cutter templates IMO. Let's be honest, "building around overseer" just means NOT spending as much on your leader as other gangs and dumping his creds into the champs and special weapon user instead. It's actually more economic on the creditbook than equipping the leader, because you can shoot a champs special weapon twice if needed instead of once, but you only buy it once.

 

[Kairae]

I thought the ‘you need to build around it to get the best out of it’ was the argument against ‘it’s extremely niche’ not the argument against ‘it’s OP’.

The argument against ‘its OP’ is that it you trade redundancy in a list with multiple strong pieces for specialisation that requires synergies to work well. It means they can be vulnerable if you take out a few key pieces (or if those fighters don’t turn up, or if you need to cover against multiple different threats at once).

 

[Vegeta365]

Having played against it a few more times my opinion hasn’t changed.

I’m still not calling it OP but it is one of the best skills I would say. Lots of skills are handy a few very good and this falls in the latter. Many skills won’t have too much of an impact in a game, this skill can have a huge impact (along with the potential credit saving). It’s very easy as an opponent to forget about it and get completely caught out by a good use of it. Suddenly allowing a champion to do a triple move (champ having the correct skill) and then with the champs activation suddenly flaming 3 fighters relatively close together that were not expecting it is great use of it. Just one example of great versatility that you don’t have to do. It’s the choices and versatility it gives not just making say a plasma gun fire twice.

My friend also loves the thought of getting a champion +2 movement increases with the triple move skill and using overseer first turn to get anywhere on the board! 42” move. A Juve could do 48” lol. First turn charge is a possibility.

Versatility is it’s reason for potential OP

 

[EAfirstlast]

I do get that overseer can have a dramatic effect on tactics, but from all of your responses it requires seems to require a number of sacrifices and a particular set of tactics in order to be efficient.

To use overseer to maximum potential for a shooting build you need to keep your leader and selected shooter with range to group activate and be affected by the overseer skill. The shooter needs to be able to move to a better position for LOS, shoot, shoot again, then move back into cover within range of the leaders Overseer and group activation range. The leader needs to be positioned so that he is in cover (preferably out of LOS) and within range of potential spots for the shooter to move back into, all without ever activating or moving.

You also need to not arm your leader or give him any utility items to keep his cost down so you are not wasting money on a model that doesn’t actively take part in the battle.

You also need clear lines of site from the shooters possible positions to actually target other models (and if you are getting 24” uninterrupted lines of site on your board you are Necromundaing wrong).

Also the position for the shooters nest needs to be close to or in your deployment zone so you don’t waste activations getting to it (again if someone has a snipers nest in their deployment zone you are Necromundaing wrong).

I fail to see how a particular gang build of a leader with no weapons and a champion with a plasma gun and rapid fire that is going to take 2 turns to get to a position where they can efficiently use this combination is not a niche tactic.

You really have to build your gang a certain dedicated way as well as set up every board a certain way to get an efficient use out of this skill.

if you lose your leader, you may as well delete your gang and make a new one. This is why overseer is so very valuable. Your leader is 100 percent irreplaceable in a campaign to the point where their loss is crippling in any gang but a drastically experienced one.

 

[Draco]

I would think that losing a leader should hurt, but by no means cripple a Necromunda Gang. Champions and leaders make income, and should be in the 200-400 credit range for a starting gang. Any model running a credit cost of 500 or more in 2000 point "developed gangs" starts behaving like a single model army; infiltrator is a great skill on such a figure.

 

[EAfirstlast]

I would think that losing a leader should hurt, but by no means cripple a Necromunda Gang. Champions and leaders make income, and should be in the 200-400 credit range for a starting gang. Any model running a credit cost of 500 or more in 2000 point "developed gangs" starts behaving like a single model army; infiltrator is a great skill on such a figure.

Leaders can't be replaced, and the champion that is promoted is still a champion, so you don't get another champion slot, and you don't get access to the skills a leader had, nor do your stats change. If your leader dies, or gets injured badly enough often enough, you are screwed in a campaign unless you have access to a really really skilled up champion already.

 

[Commissariat]

Leaders can't be replaced, and the champion that is promoted is still a champion, so you don't get another champion slot, and you don't get access to the skills a leader had, nor do your stats change. If your leader dies, or gets injured badly enough often enough, you are screwed in a campaign unless you have access to a really really skilled up champion already.

Its type changes to Leader and they count as a Leader for the purposes of skills access and everything. You get your champion slot back.

 

[EAfirstlast]

Its type changes to Leader and they count as a Leader for the purposes of skills access and everything. You get your champion slot back.

They very specifically do not get access to any different skills

 

[Thorgor]

They very specifically do not get access to any different skills

They very specifically do (check the last paragraph):

The one thing you absolutely can't get back ever when you lose your leader is a fighter with a maximum of 4 Attacks (Leader and Champions have the same starting S, T and W). Everything else is only a (huge) set back.
And if you ever promoted a Juve or Specialist to Champion, there is also a good chance that you won't be able to replace the promoted champion right away (because you already exceed the reputation cap). But the same is true whenever a champion dies anyway.

 

[Kairae]

Yet more reason to avoid promoting Juves for as long as possible.

 

[Kairae]

Sooo... having now used Overseer rather than just having it inflicted upon me: I'm coming down on the 'nah, it's OP' side.

Deployed my Escher Leader in a position where there were in total cover, but I could set them up to counter charge if my opponent pushed into me. I then proceeded to feed Orders into a GL Ganger and a Combi-Bolter Champion. My leader never exposed themselves but they were a bulwark that I could build my defence around.

Primarily I used Oversee to enhance mobility. I did this a couple of times: Move 10" out into the complete open; Fire, Move 5" back into cover. This was particularly effective because my opponent's Ballistic Savant Leader had large chunks over the board covered by a Heavy Stubber, so I had to be very careful with LOS. Once my opponent was on the backfoot I then used it to give my Champion a 20" move to get within 4" of 2 of my opponent's Gangers (they did not survive the next turn).

Honestly, it really should be a Leadership test to use. IE:

"Overseer
If the fighter is Active, they can attempt to make the following action:
Order (Double) – Make a Leadership Check for this fighter. If it passes, pick a friendly fighter within 12’’. That fighter can immediately make two actions as though it were their turn, even if they are not Ready. If they are Ready, these actions do not remove their Ready status."

For reference, that would mean that a fresh Orlock/Cawdor Leader they'd get Order of 91.66% of the time, Escher/Goliath at 83.33% and Van Saar/Delaque at 72.22%. It suddenly makes the Leadership stat quite relevant.

 

[FerociousBeast]

I like the leadership test, but you’ll still be able to get off those eye popping moves, which seems like a real immersion breaker to me. What if Overseer simply gave one additional action instead?

 

[Kairae]

I like the leadership test, but you’ll still be able to get off those eye popping moves, which seems like a real immersion breaker to me. What if Overseer simply gave one additional action instead?

It's not that OP. It's just way too reliable. And a 20" move is within the bounds of an Escher's capabilities, my Juves run 14" without batting an eyelid and will soon(tm) Sprint 24".

If I thought it needed more restrictions I'd probably just drop the range: either by just limiting it to 6" or by soft limiting it by increasing the difficulty of the Leadership check by 1 for every 1" above 4" (ie an Escher leader trying to Order a fighter at 6" would be on a 7+ to succeed).

 

[Commissariat]

Leadership Test, Line-of-Sight would be nice.

I like the idea of granting 1 action to the target model, a pay 2 actions for 1 basic/simple action out of turn deal, which can still provide versatility and decent moves. Instead of 20", it is 15" in one round on a 5" M model.

 

[pr01e]

I really like the leadership test. I'm not so sure about the LOS requirement though. Considering you are making an "Order" action, if it required LOS to give an order to a subordinate in a real situation, the leader would be running all over the place. In reality they can yell, they can radio, they can point at baddies, they can send a messenger. If there was an LOS requirement at all, I think it's more appropriate for the leader to require LOS to any affected targets of the ordered friendly unit, instead of the friendly unit itself.

I mean, I don't need to see my buddy to say "Shoot that guy behind the trash dumpster!", but I do need to see the guy behind the dumpster...

 

[FerociousBeast]

If I were writing the game, I'd make Overseer one extra action without a Leadership test, but I think what you've got @Kairae is the best way to "tweak" GW's game.

I like adding the Leadership test, and I'd also add the Line of Sight stipulation. While a Leader can yell without seeing who he's yelling at, I think someone huddling in the back behind some boxes bellowing at all his underlings without seeing them, what they're doing, or who they're up against would not be very effective.

Also, Overseer would seem to indicate some kind of seeing... Perhaps a better name for this ability would've been "Armchair Quarterback" or "Do what I say! Not what I do!"

 

[pr01e]

I think someone huddling in the back behind some boxes bellowing at all his underlings without seeing them, what they're doing, or who they're up against would not be very effective

yet it makes sense to have a leader and champ huddling behind some boxes having a LOS-based exchange about which of the enemies neither one of them can currently see that they will pop out, fire at, and hide back behind the boxes.