N18 Overwatch

[Vimak]

I have a problem in a campaign about Overwatch skill RAW. What counts action Carried out? Maybe this thin line drops in translation.
Game situations :
1. My sniper stands on a long narrow street and enemy ganger runs across with one move. I dons have LOS on him on start or end of his move. BUT i see him in a middle. Can i shoot him ?
2 Same but enemy charges me.(charge begins behind the corner)

 

[Ben_S]

I'm afraid I don't play N18, so don't know the relevant wording, beyond what's in your post. But... if it says 'carried out' this is past tense.

Does it say that you can shoot your opponent after he has carried out his action? If that's the case, then it doesn't sound like you can interrupt the action in progress.

(In the 1990s, you could interrupt opponent's actions, but I wouldn't take that as precedent since it was a different game.)

 

[Vimak]

I'm afraid I don't play N18, so don't know the relevant wording, beyond what's in your post. But... if it says 'carried out' this is past tense.

Does it say that you can shoot your opponent after he has carried out his action? If that's the case, then it doesn't sound like you can interrupt the action in progress.

(In the 1990s, you could interrupt opponent's actions, but I wouldn't take that as precedent since it was a different game.)

It says i can interrupt/shoot enemy as soon as opponent declares an action untill the opponent "carry out " an action.
Some of my opponents think that model "carry out" moving when models BEGIN to move. I think model "carry out" move when it reaches end of a distance.

 

[Vimak]

exact text from 2018 rulebook
6. OVERWATCH If this fighter is Standing and Active, and has a Ready marker on them, they can interrupt a visible enemy fighter’s action as soon as it is declared but before it is carried out. This fighter loses their Ready marker, then immediately makes a Shoot (Basic) action, targeting the enemy fighter whose action they have interrupted. If the enemy is Pinned or Seriously Injured as a result, their activation ends immediately, and their action(s) are not made

 

[Vimak]

One of my bro say that "soon as" makes me shoot the first moment i see the model (if i'm right about shooting in a middle of a move)

 

[Ben_S]

Hmm, not entirely clear (to me at least). However, the "as soon as it is declared" leads me to suspect that you have to shoot between the declaration and the (start of the) actual movement, rather than being able to interrupt mid-move. As I said though, I don't play N18, so I'm only going on what you've said here.

 

[Ben_S]

It would be clearer if 'carried out' was replaced, either with 'begun' or 'completed' (or something to that effect).

However, I note also that the final sentence says the action is 'not made' rather than 'not completed'. I think that's further evidence that it isn't actually started.

 

[Aulenback]

The charge Action tells you to move plus D3", and THEN get a free "fight" Action.

Fight after a charge is a discrete - and free and mandatory, but still discrete - Action. So it would be shooting after the movement, when the free Fight Action is declared, but before the free Fight Action happens.

BUT ... at that point the Overwatching chargee is now Engaged. Can an Engaged fighter take a Shoot Action (because just as Charge gives a free Fight Action, Overwatch gives a Shoot Action)?

I don't think so. I think Shoot (Basic) is restricted to Standing and Active, and not allowed for Standing and Engaged, so I don't think in either case, the Overwatch fighter would get to shoot. It isn't "interrupt an action once you can see them," it is explicitly "interrupt an action immediately after it is announced but before any of that action is carried out." So if you cannot see them before they do the thing, you don't get to after.

So I would say RaW says No and No, respectively. The first ganger is not visible at the start of their Move (Simple) action, and that is the only action we hear about, so no Overwatch shot. The second ganger IS visible when they begin their free Fight (Simple) action, but at that point the Overwatch shooter is already Engaged (starting at the end of the Move part of Charge (Double)).

The timing is that Overwatch's Shoot (Basic) action takes place 1. after the oponent's action is declared, and 2. before that action happens/is carried out. Ben looks to be correct.

 

[Scabs]

"they can interrupt a visible enemy fighter’s action as soon as it is declared but before it is carried out.

1) Visible
2) As soon as declared
3) Before carried out

We've always interpreted that to mean the shot has to occur before the target actually does anything, (reload, cast a spell, fire a weapon, more, etc.). So, could not be used if the opponent does not begin visible to over watching fighter. This is different from the previous (1995) edition.

 

[Vimak]

"they can interrupt a visible enemy fighter’s action as soon as it is declared but before it is carried out.

1) Visible
2) As soon as declared
3) Before carried out

We've always interpreted that to mean the shot has to occur before the target actually does anything, (reload, cast a spell, fire a weapon, more, etc.). So, could not be used if the opponent does not begin visible to over watching fighter. This is different from the previous (1995) edition.

Yep we deside to play this way. Main problem was with "carried out" for me and some of my gamemates it sounds like untill action is finished.

 

[Scabs]

Back in the day, Overwatch was a buzz kill. This way is less OP.

 

[Vimak]

Back in the day, Overwatch was a buzz kill. This way is less OP.

i just dont like the idea of my sniper looking down the street and cant shoot enemy ganger crossing it.

 

[Aulenback]

Our experience thus far:

N95 Overwatch being not a skill, but just an action for everyone, that interrupts at any time during an opponent's action, caused headache for some. (I played a lot of Ratskins and Pit Slaves, back then, after Orlocks. Ratskins could pretty easily avoid thanks to Blindsnake Pouches, but I got very good at being careful, with Pit Slaves.)

N23 Overwatch is a skill (thus has an investment cost), requires a Ready marker (thus has an action economy cost), and can only target when an action is announced but before it takes place (thus limits targets).

My "feeling" thus far is that any two of those last restrictions would be solid, but all three together makes overwatch ... extra un-useful.

I write this as someone who has not yet had a fighter with overwatch in the new editions, but has had an opponent who has fighters with overwatch in the new editions; and also as someone who played(s) a LOT of N95. As such, I come with my habits of avoiding Overwatch well ingrained, which may play into how little use of Overwatch my opponents get. Also as such, mileage may vary against other opponents.

 

[Orpheus88]

i just dont like the idea of my sniper looking down the street and cant shoot enemy ganger crossing it.

Its a lot harder than one is inclined to assume, to track a moving target that you dont even know is there until it starts moving. By the time you realise whats happening the opportunity has passed.
(google "OODA Loop" if youre interested).

This is a terrible movie in every respect so I feel weird about using it to illustrate my point but for those who have seen "Enemy at the Gates", remember the scene where Jude Law and Ron Perlman are jumping across the exposed gap?

Law lets Perlman jump first out of courtesy, the implication here is that they obviously have no way of knowing if someone is covering that gap or not...but that first guy isnt the one who is in danger, its the subsequent guy.
Of course, Ed Harris makes the impossible shot anyway and thats the big "oh wow...this guy is really something" moment.

The idea being that this is something that shouldnt be possible

 

[Orpheus88]

Our experience thus far:

N95 Overwatch being not a skill, but just an action for everyone, that interrupts at any time during an opponent's action, caused headache for some. (I played a lot of Ratskins and Pit Slaves, back then, after Orlocks. Ratskins could pretty easily avoid thanks to Blindsnake Pouches, but I got very good at being careful, with Pit Slaves.)

N23 Overwatch is a skill (thus has an investment cost), requires a Ready marker (thus has an action economy cost), and can only target when an action is announced but before it takes place (thus limits targets).

My "feeling" thus far is that any two of those last restrictions would be solid, but all three together makes overwatch ... extra un-useful.

I write this as someone who has not yet had a fighter with overwatch in the new editions, but has had an opponent who has fighters with overwatch in the new editions; and also as someone who played(s) a LOT of N95. As such, I come with my habits of avoiding Overwatch well ingrained, which may play into how little use of Overwatch my opponents get. Also as such, mileage may vary against other opponents.

In N95 we didnt have Infinity-style alternating activations.
If your guy foregoes his action during your own turn, he gets to interrupt the opponent's.
I have so many memories of my opponent sending out the screen of juvies trying to bait the overwatches before the hitters would move haha.


Since the current iteration has individual models taking turns rather than the whole gang, you could make the case that this functions similarly.
Without any skill investment, my guy who hasnt done anything yet can respond to the thing your guy just did.
The only thing that the "Overwatch" skill lets you do in practice over and above that is interrupt the second half of the turn.

ie Your guy turns the corner and aims at one of my guys. My guy with overwatch gets a chance to pop him and hopefully at least cause a pin.

I consider it to be a powerful skill since from an action economy perspective, I just pinned your guy during your own turn.