N18 Perpetual 'League' Rules for the Seattle Area

John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
Hey all,

Our local game group has run two Dominion campaigns so far and has grown to 30+ players. It's getting a bit unwieldy and we've learned some lessons when it comes to our player preferences and gang growth. As our local arbitrator I put together a new ongoing format that draws from the NCE rules, Turf War, and Dominion for a ruleset that feels more like classic Necromunda/Mordheim, but founded on the current ruleset. Thought you all might enjoy a look.

Seattle Area League Rules: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AuFd-VhquFwzz10mW9RYSjNXlKYy

Ultimately it's about keeping growth to an appropriate level, where income *just* outpaces your losses, and focuses the game on fighter growth rather than piling up tons of easy credits.
 

ThunderLips

New Member
May 10, 2019
3
3
3
Very cool! The original Necromunda was and is my favourite game ever. I just got the new rules and I was a bit let down that there wasn't an open ended campaign. I'll show these rules to my little group.
Thank you!
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
805
1,290
113
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Looks like a solid enough perpetual rule set based on a quick read through.

Good work with reworking the territories to make them more even with a bit of flavour. Looks like you borrowed from the NCE rule set for a few of those, though it would be great to see some more variety.

Refuse Drift should probably 2d6 x 5 or 10 credits instead of just 2d6 as it makes badly rounded credit quantities which don't exist elsewhere in N17. I understand tat you may want to just make some territories bad. The NCE territory it was based on (Chem Pit) used to give a bonus for rolling a double as well as a negative. IMO It would be better to just change it to Wastes that give 0 or 5 credits but allow you to give it to the opposition if you lose a territory.

Slag Furnace also looks like an under performer in that it is worse than every other territory except the Refuse Drift with no upside. I get that it is the equivalent of the NCE Slag territory but it would be nice to have it do something or be worth d6x5 for a bit of variety and allow it to out perform other territories that earn D6x10 on more than a roll of a 1.

NCE often had the issue that if you rolled bad starting territories then you couldn't really do anything to fix it. If you changed the above two territories I think that it would even out the territory table a bit better and reduce the number of gangs that start with a dud set of territories that don't produce income.
 

John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
Looks like a solid enough perpetual rule set based on a quick read through.

Good work with reworking the territories to make them more even with a bit of flavour. Looks like you borrowed from the NCE rule set for a few of those, though it would be great to see some more variety.

Refuse Drift should probably 2d6 x 5 or 10 credits instead of just 2d6 as it makes badly rounded credit quantities which don't exist elsewhere in N17. I understand tat you may want to just make some territories bad. The NCE territory it was based on (Chem Pit) used to give a bonus for rolling a double as well as a negative. IMO It would be better to just change it to Wastes that give 0 or 5 credits but allow you to give it to the opposition if you lose a territory.

Slag Furnace also looks like an under performer in that it is worse than every other territory except the Refuse Drift with no upside. I get that it is the equivalent of the NCE Slag territory but it would be nice to have it do something or be worth d6x5 for a bit of variety and allow it to out perform other territories that earn D6x10 on more than a roll of a 1.
Thanks for the feedback! I love the wastes concept you proposed here and I definitely going to apply that one.
 

John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
It’s actually what the current N17 rule for the wastes is. I think NCE also has something similar in the Outlanders territory chart.
Took those suggestions and gave a little bump to the Old Ruins at the same time. Went with Wastes as you suggested, and improved the refuse drift with greater risk/reward calculus.

I actually wanted to make sure all the territories on this chart were in the dominion rules, as they would be in the Yaktribe Underhive tools system and could easily be tracked and recorded, even if the rules themselves are changed.

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AuFd-VhquFwzz10mW9RYSjNXlKYy
 

Dertrend

Juve
Jan 27, 2014
37
22
8
New Westminster BC
The Space Needle background is a nice touch (y)

Im a member of a big group just over your northern border in Vancouver. We have generally stuck with dominion with all the bells and whistles but I can see why you would want to cut out sub-plots and limit territory effects to have less extreme games. Do you still allow players to choose their own tactics cards?

It could be fun to do a cross border arbitrator scenario away game sometime :)
 

John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
The Space Needle background is a nice touch (y)

Im a member of a big group just over your northern border in Vancouver. We have generally stuck with dominion with all the bells and whistles but I can see why you would want to cut out sub-plots and limit territory effects to have less extreme games. Do you still allow players to choose their own tactics cards?

It could be fun to do a cross border arbitrator scenario away game sometime :)
Haha, I bet we could totally make that work! Maybe split the difference and run something in Bellingham.

Still let people choose cards, but everyone is making a deck of 20 so even random draws are pretty good.
 

TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
1,851
1,566
138
Kristiansand
When it comes to cards, I much prefer the "draw x + 3, keep x" replacement for custom selection. I'm more in favour of keeping Sub-Plots as optional, not excluding it or making it mandatory.

I made a similar attempt at everlasting campaign and including some of the best parts of earlier versions (underdog bonus, income tax). Also with custom territories:

Refuse Drift should probably 2d6 x 5 or 10 credits instead of just 2d6 as it makes badly rounded credit quantities which don't exist elsewhere in N17.
I can agree any multiples of d6 credits give badly rounded quantities, unfortunately N18 does not maintain a consistency in this matter. Check out the reward for loot caskets: d6 credits!
 
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John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
Loot caskets give d6x10 credits in forgotten riches and smash and grab scenarios and d3x10 in the Looters scenario.

Not sure where you are seeing d6 credits only in the current rulebook.
I think he's talking about standard loot crates that aren't associated with scenarios.
 

Jon Reinhardt

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Oct 19, 2016
131
278
113
Stavanger
There is a lot of rely good ideas here. Just one question whit the tax table. Now it looks like the game goes from having a lot of money at times to everyone being very poor. And in a long campaign that can be a good thing. But whit that lite money things like going to the doc. Unless you buy one. On the other side starting whit 5 territories give a higher total income in most campaigns i have played before the table.
But i do think that you might have the some of the same problems as the old system. That the gangs that are falling behind will have a rely hard time getting back on track. there is a chance that they often will have a few men in recovery and that they already have lost a few territories. Then they will often end up whit nearly no income.

We are about to start a new campaign and are looking to make a new campaign like you have done but im struggling to find a way where you can limit the bigger leading gangs but still giving the underdogs a chance to catch up.

Have you play tested this campaign mode? And have you considered keeping the scenario rewards separate from the rest of the income?
 

John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
There is a lot of rely good ideas here. Just one question whit the tax table. Now it looks like the game goes from having a lot of money at times to everyone being very poor. And in a long campaign that can be a good thing. But whit that lite money things like going to the doc. Unless you buy one. On the other side starting whit 5 territories give a higher total income in most campaigns i have played before the table.
But i do think that you might have the some of the same problems as the old system. That the gangs that are falling behind will have a rely hard time getting back on track. there is a chance that they often will have a few men in recovery and that they already have lost a few territories. Then they will often end up whit nearly no income.

We are about to start a new campaign and are looking to make a new campaign like you have done but im struggling to find a way where you can limit the bigger leading gangs but still giving the underdogs a chance to catch up.

Have you play tested this campaign mode? And have you considered keeping the scenario rewards separate from the rest of the income?
So a few things:

We've done a bit of playtesting and now we're actually started legit using this system for our campaign, so we're making little iterations here and there and correcting/clarifying some issues. This isn't just a concept doc any more, we're running with it and it's been good so far.

Gangs are more likely to collapse dramatically in this system than grow outrageously powerful, for sure. The solution to that is to make a relatively low-impact way of reforming the gang. People can start over whenever they want at 1000 credits, and keep all the great fighters they love with their gear and xp. The cost is that your leader gets thrown in the sump sea. This will give the campaign an overall feel of being at around 1000 credits, which is the range with the best balance and still lots of fun wacky stuff happening.

The element that I think people are really liking about the campaign so far is that decisions have more gravity. I have a hobbled champ and a -1BS ganger, but I'm keeping them both around for now. In dominion with so many credits, it probably would be best to dump them and rehire, but decisions like that have much more at stake when credits are scarce. You're getting actual character development and problem solving rather than just throwing credits at the problem.

I think this system is addressing two important psychological elements for players that Dominion and Turf War get wrong: No one enjoys being at the bottom of the table in an unwinnable campaign, and no one enjoys feeling locked into that situation without the option of scrapping and resetting. In Dominion, many players who are falling behind are more likely to bow out and stop clocking games rather than suffering through getting blown apart in games that ultimately benefit someone on their way to a couple of Triumphs. This system doesn't have a 'winner' or 'triumphs', and you can have a hard reset whenever you want, at the same time as even the good gangs are growing really slowly.

Having 800 or 1000 points different is actually not too bad in giving a plausible win scenario to an underdog, especially with the new House Patronage rules, but when it gets to the point where gangs with plenty of games are being outclassed by 2-3k simply because their opponent got a few good territories up front, that's when you've got to adjust some of the grown potential downward. Also, no one cares about how awesome a plasma gun is or that Astartes-level armor save you've got when you have 2000 credits in your stash that you don't know what to do with. Gaining good gear is magical when you're only earning like 45 credits after a totally solid win.

Lastly: The one source of credits we are taking off the income table is ransoming for captured fighters. This is how it was run in the NCE and seems pretty good.
 
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Jon Reinhardt

Ganger
Honored Tribesman
Oct 19, 2016
131
278
113
Stavanger
Oki then i think i get what you want to do. But because of this i think maybe making the going to the doc and a bit cheaper and making buying a rough doc more costly.
Not only your campaign but in general the going to the doc cost so much people have stopped using it.
 

John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
Oki then i think i get what you want to do. But because of this i think maybe making the going to the doc and a bit cheaper and making buying a rough doc more costly.
Not only your campaign but in general the going to the doc cost so much people have stopped using it.
I guess it's about the flavor your group wants. For my part, I actually want fighter death to be common and brutal, so I like that it's actually very costly to get someone to the doc.
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
805
1,290
113
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Who needs a doctor. Back in the day it was just a 1 in 6 chance of death or multiple injuries.

I actually think it might be better just to get rid of the whole critically injured but of the new table and replace it with dead or multiple serious injuries.

It’s one less game mechanic you have to deal with that really just ends up with a serious injury anyway.
 
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John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
Some updates here:
Since I posted this we've had several small updates to clarify a few things like money from ransom (not put through income chart, per NCE), scenario updates, clarification on Venators and Chaos Cult.

The rules again for convenience: https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!ACZb1FhKM1eUpjI&cid=335CB86A58F95DE1&id=335CB86A58F95DE1!10205&parId=335CB86A58F95DE1!10126&o=OneUp

Also, the next update is going to account for stuff that comes out in the Book of Peril, in case there are any major curveballs. I'm also rolling back the 'free specialist at gang creation' bit... we've run into some weird incentives where people feel they need to rebuild if they lose their specialist, whereas nowhere near as much stress is placed on champions, because they can be purchased after creation. It's tightening down access to special weapons a bit, but probably for the better.

Overall impressions have been very positive. Injuries are playing more of a role in the campaign because people are reluctant to retire fighters, so they play through and accommodate for the nicks and scratches their gang has suffered. Really enjoying the setting so far, and the balance between gangs at 7 games and 0 games is overall very good (better, but not unbeatable).
 
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John Compton

Juve
Honored Tribesman
May 21, 2018
47
64
63
Seattle, WA, USA
Hey all, just providing some feedback on our campaign progress now that we've been at it for a month or more. Rules here: https://yaktribe.games/community/vault/eternal-campaign-ruleset.1006/

One of our goals with this ruleset was to take the severity out of the campaign by not having an endpoint/winner and to prevent locking people in to failing gangs. On this score the campaign rules have been very successful. People are more willing to take risks and more willing to play games out as a result: more fun overall. This system has also proven to be perfect for the release of the Book of Peril: I can totally see players being unwilling to use Badzone rules because of the stakes in a standard Dominion campaign. In this system, however, they have been well-used and loved by all (well, at least as far as I have heard).

We brought Guilds into the mix with BoP, and with it we needed to reincorporate the costs of doing business with Guilds: House Favors and Sub-Plots, and thus Reputation. This has gone pretty well so far - The injection of equipment into the stash of house-aligned gangs has not broken the system down at all, and is a pretty decent offset to not having Guild fighters/benefits.

We did walk back the free specialist we originally wrote into the rules, as it created a situation where the Specialist was almost more important than your leader or champions. Now you don't get a free specialist when starting a gang, but you can carry over specialists when you disband/reform.

All in all this has been a solid experiment and I hope that GW comes out with something comparable to this as another campaign type. If anyone out there has tried these out in their own campaigns I'd love to hear how it's going.
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
319
228
58
Australia
I notice that there's a few types of scenario where territories are destroyed. Have you considered looking at any of the scenarios and having the victor generate a new territory? Because there's a risk - if you don't get lots of disbands / new blood - of running out of territories.

Forgotten Riches seems like a good option.
If the victorious gang ends the battle with fighters left on the board, roll a D6. On a 4+ the victorious gang randomly generates a new territory.

Also, why did you feel you needed to restrict Gangers from accessing special weapons? With the reduction in earnings special weapons for Gangers will be few and far between anyway. I play Escher, and I find that being able to equip my Gangers with Needle Guns and Long Las balances easy access to Bolters and Combat Shotguns (both of which are 'Basic').
 
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