N18 Pinning and the Mounted condition

[Matt Spencer]

I'm not sure how the Mounted condition is supposed to work with various special rules related to Pinning. The following quotes are all taken from either the Ash Wastes Rulebook or the Book of the Outlands.

HIT FIGHTERS BECOME PINNED
The vast majority of fighters, when they find themselves under enemy fire, will duck for cover and attempt to keep their head down. To represent this, when a Standing and Active fighter is hit by a ranged attack, they re automatically placed Prone and Pinned. Players should note that a Standing and Engaged fighter cannot become Prone and Pinned.

"I Get Knocked Down...": A Mounted fighter does not automatically become Pinned when hit by a ranged attack. Instead, they immediately make an Initiative check (applying a -1 modifier if they were hit by a weapon with either the Blast (X) or Knockback traits). If this check is failed, they are Knocked Down

When a Mounted fighter is Knocked Down, they immediately suffer an automatic hit. The Strength, AP and Damage of this hit is determined by how far the fighter moved during their last activation, rounded up to the nearest inch:

Distance Moved	Strength	AP	Damage
0"-5"	3	-	1
6"-9"	5	-1	1
10"+	7	-2	2

Once a Mounted fighter has been Knocked Down, they become Prone and Pinned. However, they must pass an Initiative check before they can successfully perform the Stand Up (Basic) action. If this check is passed, the fighter may stand up as normal and immediately becomes Standing and Active once more. If this check is failed, the action is wasted and they remain Prone and Pinned.

4. NERVES OF STEEL
When the fighter is hit by a ranged attack, make a Cool check for them. If it is passed, they may choose not to be Pinned.

5. SPRING UP
If this fighter is Pinned when they are activated, make an Initiative check for them. If the check is passed, the fighter may make a Stand Up (Basic) action for free. If the check is failed, the fighter may still stand up, but it costs one action as usual.

SEISMIC
If a fighter hit by a weapon with this Trait is Standing and Active, they will always become Prone and Pinned - even if they have an ability that would normally allow them to avoid being Pinned by ranged attacks. If a vehicle is hit by a weapon with this Trait, after the attack has been fully resolved the vehicle must make a Loss of Control test.

In addition, if the wound roll for a Seismic weapon is a natural 6, no save roll can be made against that attack.

If my Mounted fighter with Nerves of Steel is hit by a shooting attack, what happens?
NoS1. Cool check, if passed nothing happens (proceed to Initiative check if Cool check failed).
NoS2. Initiative check, if failed Knocked Down, then Cool check to avoid being Pinned.
NoS3. He's not getting Pinned because he's hit by a ranged attack (he's getting pinned because he's Knocked Down), so the skill doesn't help.

If my Mounted fighter with Spring Up starts their activation Pinned, what happens?
SU1. Initiative check, if passed Stand Up for free.
SU2. Initiative check, if passed make a second Initiative check in order to take the Stand Up action for free.

If my Mounted fighter is hit by a ranged weapon with the Seismic Trait, what happens?
S1. Initiative check, if passed they're not Knocked Down but are still Pinned.
S2. Automatically Knocked Down and Pinned.

Maybe the answers are obvious, but with there being so many contradictions in the rules I'm no longer sure of anything, so I'd appreciate a second opinion.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

I'm sure I've seen this answered officially - in an FAQ or something.
So I'll relay what I remember.

These skills apply as normal - so Nerves of Steel gets to take a cool check if hit, and only has to test initiative if it's failed.

Spring Up gets to take an initiative test to spring up, and if successful they can jump on for free, taking another initiative test to do so.

It didnt mention seismic, I would interpret it as you're automatically knocked down.

Mounted fighters don't get pinned - knocked down is their direct equivalent.

 

[Matt Spencer]

Mounted fighters don't get pinned - knocked down is their direct equivalent.

So does that mean if a Mounted fighter is hit by a vehicle they also get Knocked Down, and have to take the damage for the collision and the Knocked Down damage as well? And, if so, would they get a second Initiative check to avoid the Pinning and the Knocked Down damage after taking the vehicle collision damage?

I don't suppose you know where this FAQ was, do you? The last one I saw only mentioned that the income from road sections was correct, and had nothing about Mounted fighters.

 

[SteveZombi]

Sump City radio had an official response from the Necromunda rules team at GW about this. This is what they said.

"How does the 'mounted' condition interact with the skills, 'Nerves of Steel' and 'Spring Up'?"

For both rules just apply them at the point in which they trigger.

Nerves of Steel: As this happens when the fighter is hit and so before they would be pinned, they may make a Cool check, if passed they remain Standing. If failed then the usual Initiative check to see if a fighter subject to the Mounted Condition is pinned.

Spring Up: If they pass an Agility test they may make a Stand Up action for free, they must then pass an Initiative to successfully get up in the same manner as any fighter subject to the Mounted Condition, it just doesn't cost them an action."

 

[Jam Warrior]

I reject these answers. (A) makes no sense thematically (B) awful rules balance (C) put out your bloody errata through official channels and not a damned third party podcast.

 

[TopsyKretts]

I think it makes a lot of sense to avoid further complications. But then I don't get the technical distinction between Pinned and Knocked Down (other than Knocked Down involves damage). Completely agree this must go through official channels. How come a podcast get to ask these questions? Can they how to resolve a close combat action involving multiple hits with Knockback?

 

[Jon Reinhardt]

Hi so if you mount a lobo ogryn that cant be pinned? Does is ignore the knocked down rules then?

 

[TopsyKretts]

Yes as far as I can see.

 

[Liska]

I disagree with the consensus above. The “I Get Knocked Down” rules supersede the normal rules for being Pinned when hit. Instead, when hit you take an Initiative check to see if the Fighter becomes Pinned. Thus, RAW:

Nerves of Steel has no effect.
In order to use Spring Up, the Mounted Fighter must first pass an Initiative check to ‘unlock’ the Stand Up (Basic) Action.
Seismic Weapons bypass “I Get Knocked Down…” rules; Fighter just becomes Pinned.

 

[TopsyKretts]

It is bad game design to have a dead skill. Wouldn't it be better if Nerves of Steel has an effect?

 

[PalatineKatinka]

If this were Underworlds then players would be expected to follow the rules in sequence, even if something seems a little counter intuitive, but sadly Necromunda rules aren't written as tightly.

Spring Up seems simple enough, one test to see if the cost of the Stand Up (Basic) action is 1 or 0, and then a second test when the action is actually performed. The only issue I have with that is the generic problem I have that they didn't switch Stand Up to be (Simple) so anyone who fails the action is then left with a single action they can't do much with. I guess they might have a weapon needing reloading. At least a fighter who succeeds their first Initiative test will still have 2 actions and be able to Crawl (Double) or Blind Fire (Double).

For Nerves of Steel (and other Pinning ignoring abilities) and Seismic, if I were to apply an Underworlds style approach then I'd first want to parse out the "I Get Knocked Down..." rule to establish the order of events:
1. The fighter is not automatically Pinned when hit by ranged attacks, contrary to the standard Shooting sequence.
2. Instead the fighter must take an Initiative check to avoid being Knocked Down. If failed go to step 3, if passed go to step 5.
3. The fighter suffers an additional hit based on movement last activation. (Which reminds me I may need to make some speed tokens when I eventually field bikers...)
4. The fighter becomes Pinned (and needs to pass an Initiative test if & when they perform a Stand Up (Basic) action or they remain Pinned).
5. Proceed with standard Shooting sequence (resolve the hit).

The thing I consider important to note here is that Pinning does not cause Knock Down, rather it is the other way around, in place of the normal rules for Pinning is a Knock Down test and being Knocked Down causes Pinning. Therefore, a test for Nerves of Steel may be made when hit and if passed you will be able to decide for the fighter to not be Pinned, but they'll still need to test for Knock Down. The test can be taken at step 1 of the above sequence, but a successful result won't take effect until step 4. Similarly, Seismic would automatically Pin a mounted fighter, over-riding the statement in step 1, but that doesn't make them automatically Knocked Down. I doubt this is what's intended though, because this is Necromunda.

This has raised a new question in my head though. If Pinning normally happens as soon as a fighter is hit and Knock Down replaces that point in the attack sequence, would that mean the damage from being Knocked Down applies before the damage from being shot? Would going Out of Action from the crash steal away the opponent's opportunity for XP?

 

[mcfonz]

I think it makes a lot of sense to avoid further complications. But then I don't get the technical distinction between Pinned and Knocked Down (other than Knocked Down involves damage). Completely agree this must go through official channels. How come a podcast get to ask these questions? Can they how to resolve a close combat action involving multiple hits with Knockback?

Knocked Down is Pinned really... the difference is that as you are mounted, you fall off your mount, or you go down with your mount. So the extra stuff reflects you picking up your now prone bike, or your regain control of your helamite which has thrown you from the saddle startled.

This then translates well to Nerves of Steel, think of well trained, grizzled motorcycle troopers or horse cavalry who just speed on through the hail of bullets etc.

Equally, spring up can represent the trained riders that have taught their mounts to go to ground and quickly get up again or remount much faster due to technique and experience etc.

Seismic works like Pinned but you can't ignore it, so you don't test as mentioned for Knocked Down and the fighter is thrown from their mount.

 

[mcfonz]

I disagree with the consensus above. The “I Get Knocked Down” rules supersede the normal rules for being Pinned when hit. Instead, when hit you take an Initiative check to see if the Fighter becomes Pinned. Thus, RAW:

Nerves of Steel has no effect.
In order to use Spring Up, the Mounted Fighter must first pass an Initiative check to ‘unlock’ the Stand Up (Basic) Action.
Seismic Weapons bypass “I Get Knocked Down…” rules; Fighter just becomes Pinned.

Makes no sense.

If you fail the "I get knocked down" test you are pinned and treated as having fallen essentially. All it is really describing is the difference between getting pinned whilst mounted compared to pinned whilst not mounted. The test is exactly like falling, but instead of using height it uses movement.

The only real difference represents how saddles and things like stirrups work etc. In that you don't get knocked down if you past the test as you remain in the saddle/seat. And that's the only reason you don't get pinned.

To me this represents some balance. It might be a bit harder to pin a mounted fighter, but that represents the tough beasts or vehicles they are riding. However, it doesn't come without risk, which is being shot could dislodge you from your mount resulting in you hitting the ground. This can a) hurt, b) take time to remount.

It's pinning, just for mounts.

@TopsyKretts is correct, it would make no sense to offer mounts to your fighters that then negates any skills they have and render them useless. Especially if you take into account the commercial aspect... GW want you to play ash wastes, want those fighters that are able to be able to be given vehicles during campaigns including mounts. Rather limits the sales appeal somewhat.

 

[Liska]

I’m not disagreeing with how you want to play the rules, or that it’s stupid to negate rules… I’m simply stating RAW. You may be surprised when other people have different ways of playing, so be ready to Arbitrate if that’s your role.

 

[spafe]

I’m simply stating RAW

I dont think you are. I dont disagree that people may play it that way, not knowing the semi faq answers given by the gw design team, BUT:

It isnt as clear cut as you make out. If asked (as in this thread) to read the wording and review it in detail, I would get to the following (ignoring the semi faq):

Step 1: fighter is hit
Step 2: fighter becomes automatically pinned

Step 1: fighter is hit
step 2: fighter has nerves of steel, can test to ignore pinning step

Step 1: fighter is hit
Step 2:fighter has nerves of steel, can test to ignore pinning step
[fails]
Step 3: fighter is mounted, replace 'automactically pinned' with 'I get knocked down' test

Therefore, I would read it as nerves kicks in and ends that sequence before you replace the pinning step with the I get knocked down. Not saying its correct, but saying thats how I would read it, looking to get exact wording. You could argue those 2 steps are flipped, but that isnt stated anywhere, and therefore RAW doesnt exist.

same with Spring up, its arguing semantics and makes no real difference, but you could spring up first (to unlock the stand up action for free), then test to 'successfully perform' said stand up action (which actually is the order I would read that as, since one unlocks the action, the other adds a test when doing the action to make sure you have successfully performed the action. But that one has little real difference, its just down to if you can free action or use action point to do the stand up action.

 

[Liska]

Fair enough. Here is how I read it:

Step 1: fighter is hit
Step 2: fighter is mounted, replace 'automactically pinned' with 'I get knocked down' test.
Step 3: Fighter fails Initiative Test, becoming Prone and Pinned. As Nerves of Steel states “Pass a Cool test when hit by a ranged attack to avoid Pinning”; and we replaced that part of the procedure with “I Get Knocked Down…”, Nerves of Steel doesn’t apply, as it was failing the Initiative Check that led to the Pinned status, just as failing an Initiative check when Jumping down leads to Falling, and the fighter being Pinned and not triggering Nerves of Steel.

To me, the “I Get Knocked Down…” rules mirror the Falling rules.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Then Nerves of Steel is dead for mounted fighters

 

[Liska]

S



Putting it another way…



Shooting Steps:

1. DECLARE THE RANGED ATTACK
2. CHECK THE RANGE
3. MAKE THE HIT ROLL
4. TARGET IS PINNED: When a Standing Active fighter is hit by a ranged attack, they are automatically Pinned.

NERVES OF STEEL: If Pinned when hit by a ranged attack, pass a Cool test to avoid Pinning.



I GET KNOCKED DOWN...

If Pinned when hit by a ranged attack, pass an Initiative test (-1 modifier if hit by Blast or Knockback): to avoid Pinning.

If Failed, become Knocked Down (Pinned).



I’m using the Necrodamus as my rules source, and rephrased both to the same language and structure for comparison. This wording is very different from the OP on the “I Get Knocked Down…” rules. I would read this as being sequential.

 

[PalatineKatinka]

Unless the wording of Nerves of Steel has changed since the printing of the Rulebook I have to hand (2018 Hardback), the skill does not ignore the pinning step, it gives you the choice whether or not to be pinned based on a Cool check triggered when hit.
"When the fighter is hit by a Ranged attack... ...they may choose not to be Pinned."
So a Nerves of Steel check should be taken before the Knocked Down check but doesn't prevent it, it just allows the fighter to choose not to be Pinned when/if that comes up.

Regarding Spring Up, the check for the skill is made when the fighter is activated, not when the Stand Up action is attempted, so the skill check comes first and the action doesn't even need to be performed immediately. As an example a fighter could succeed on a Spring Up check but lie in cover while trying to reload, planning on keeping their head down if they fail to reload but hoping to pass the Spring Up check, successfully reload, stand up for free and then shoot.

 

[Amarok]

Nice thread about the mounted condition, there are many interactions that should be cleared out by FAQ. In my group, we had some test games to prepare our first Ash Wastes campaign, and we found some weird stuff (and more to happen while we play, I'm afraid)

Right now, we have two main discussion:

1. How certain skills should work while mounted, sprint and hip shooting came into it. Should they be used? Sprint makes me chuckle, I can imagine a Flintstones dirtbike for this...

2. How some weather effects affect them. We had the effect that makes the move (simple) become move (basic) unless the fighter has a respirator. RAW it should also be like that for mounted condition, but it looks a bit weird... What would you do?