N18 Questions outcasts guild

[irishwizz]

Hi everyone,

For our next campaign, I'd like to try a slaver's guild outcast gang and have several questions:
1) if i want to use the Yaktribe tool, i need to add a custom gzng and add each profile individually, right?
2) i add the four characters of the slaver's guild without changing anything to them, right? A video on youtube gives recommendations about slaver's guild outcast rosters, but they seem to change the loadout or they say the champion has fast shot, which he has not, so I'm a bit puzzled
3) if i add gangers to that, do we agree that they have to be the hive scums and not the same profile as the gangers of the guild?
4) one of the special rules of the slaver's guild is that captured fighters need to be sold to the slaver's guild. How does it work when you play them as a gang? Does it cancel that rule?
5) since there's one leader one champion and two gangers in the initial loadout, i can buy another champion, right?

I think that's all for now thanks a lot!

Laurent

 

[spafe]

1) if i want to use the Yaktribe tool, i need to add a custom gzng and add each profile individually, right?

correct

2) i add the four characters of the slaver's guild without changing anything to them, right? A video on youtube gives recommendations about slaver's guild outcast rosters, but they seem to change the loadout or they say the champion has fast shot, which he has not, so I'm a bit puzzled

going from memory when I considered this, you are correct, they are exactly as they are in the books, but you can gain xp etc to add more skills to them in the future.

Side note - The leader and maybe (maybe) the champ part of the guild can pick an extra starting skill depending on wording, as they take the special rules from the leader/champ which includes giving them a starting skill. I think its arguably there for the leader as part of 'elevating a leader' but not so for the champ.

3) if i add gangers to that, do we agree that they have to be the hive scums and not the same profile as the gangers of the guild?

correct, all extra beyond the starting guild chaps are scum

4) one of the special rules of the slaver's guild is that captured fighters need to be sold to the slaver's guild. How does it work when you play them as a gang? Does it cancel that rule?

this one isnt really clear. I suspect discuss with your arbitrator/group how this should be played. Is it part of the 'guild' bonus or part of the 'crew' bonus?

5) since there's one leader one champion and two gangers in the initial loadout, i can buy another champion, right?

as long as you can make up the 3-1 ratio of scum to champs then yeah, no problem with that.

Outcasts are a funny gang that you have to 'best guess' a fair few bits where it tries to include for a million options so things dont always line up perfectly.

 

[irishwizz]

going from memory when I considered this, you are correct, they are exactly as they are in the books, but you can gain xp etc to add more skills to them in the future.

Side note - The leader and maybe (maybe) the champ part of the guild can pick an extra starting skill depending on wording, as they take the special rules from the leader/champ which includes giving them a starting skill. I think its arguably there for the leader as part of 'elevating a leader' but not so for the champ.

Thanks, your answers were super helpful.

For the skill, i have strong doubts: the leader of the guild is already a leader, so no elevation to leader. Them and the champions need to choose an archetype, but it's not written that they need to choose a skill (plus they already have one). So i think I'll take them as they are.

For the special rule of the guild, I'll see with my arbitrator then

Thanks!

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

The Underhive "Outcasts Delegation Gangs" rules on page 22 makes no mention of any fighters gaining the special rules of Outcasts fighters of the same rank.

Specifically here is what they get: Leaders and Champions gain Tools of the Trade, and select Archetypes, and the leader selects the Affiliation matching their Delegation type. The rest of the gang counts as the Delegation so that they benefit from Group Activation and Gang Hierarchy.

Since they do have Tools of the Trade, you can make a secondary weapon load out if you want. The video you say is just flat out incorrect about skills, they have set skills that do not change when hiring. Delegation leaders have two skills, giving them a third is ludicrous.

I'll also point out that in the rules for each Delegation there is a list of rules on the same page as the model profiles titled "(Name of Delegation) Special Rules". These rules are worded in such a way that they only apply to gangs allied with that Delegation, and so do not apply to Outcasts Delegations.

Likewise the Benefits and Drawbacks don't apply to Outcasts Delegations. That answers your question about having to sell captives, no that rules does not apply. These are Outcast slavers, they lost their connection.

The special rules for each individual fighter do apply as normal.

As written there is no way to replace lost Delegation members. I think Arbitrators should allow replacements, we do have prices.

I have done a lot of thinking about this topic!

 

[libratorr]

I'll also point out that in the rules for each Delegation there is a list of rules on the same page as the model profiles titled "(Name of Delegation) Special Rules". These rules are worded in such a way that they only apply to gangs allied with that Delegation, and so do not apply to Outcasts Delegations.

Not all the Special Rules on the Delegation fighter profile pages always apply to the gangs allied.

Page 22 of Book of Outcasts: [After recruiting the delegation fighters] "[t]he remainder of your Stash may be spent as normal on Underhive Outcasts fighters; they all count as members of the Delegation for rules purposes".
The rules in question being the applicable rules for the delegation.

The general failure to make any reference to any special rules relevant to delegation models on page 22 makes it possible that the rules for the Delgations were meant to be included in the port, where applicable - overlooked rules in Necromunda being quite the endemic issue. Certainly when elevating a notional Fighter to Leader Status (on page 27) you are meant to include all the fighter's rules as per their profile.

Looking at said rules, the A Band Apart and Here to Help rules directly relate to organisational members of the delegations getting decent health care (eg: injuries always = Out Cold) when part of their originating organisation and the latter being about the controlling player being able to pick allied fighters when they have boon granting their use - they are likely not meant to be included [1] in importing the delegations to be regular gang fighters.

[1] Although the lack of an official way to hire a replacement delegation fighter when one is killed in an Outcast gang could be taken to imply A Band Apart is meant to be in effect to prevent such a possibility happening...and Outcast gangs are meant to have an absurdly large Scum to Leader/Champ ratio - leading to statistically likely bad gang composition in random selection scenarios- which lends credence to the possibility they are meant to be autoincluded as part of the base number via Here to Help....

Other examples: Light in Dark Places from the Pyromantic Conclave (House of Artifice page 82) iS a global rule for the effect of the fighters from the Conclave appearing on the table (ability to do "Lights Out" and flash grenade on point of expiry), A Promising Fighter for Slaver Entourage (page 94 House of Chains) could easily be ruled to refer to Hive Scum members of the Outcast gang (and is the type of rule you would want in a dedicated Slaver Entourage/Pit Fighter gang), Seconded to the Militia from House Greim (page 96) works fine on Hive Scum, etc.

Compared to all the special rules (Chem Alchemy, Faith dice, Gene Smithing, etc) the House Gangs get these are all pretty ineffectual and would be on the weaker power tiers.

Further into the special rules to the those attached to the Slaver Entourage fighters, the Slaver Entourage Hierarchy rule on the Chain Lord (Leader) is direct equivalent to the Gang Hierarchy (Leader) rule all leaders get, the Group Activation rules and equivalent hierarchchy rules on the champs too reflect the basic special rules for those fighter subtypes - not a problem. The Bodyguard and Indentured Fighters rules on the Pit Figher directly relate to the Chain Lord and Chain Lord and Shakleman respectively and are useless when those models die and can't be replaced (under the general interpretation of RAW, see above re: A Band Apart for an alternative interpretation), have no reference to an allied gang, and are very much relevant to the fighters specified in their rules.

Ask for an arbitrator call, in the absence of a FAQ/errata.

YakTribe itself seems to have kept its Outcasts mechanics discussion over here in Gangs and Loadouts - couldn't find the now-usual Errata thread for it.

 

[libratorr]

Likewise the Benefits and Drawbacks don't apply to Outcasts Delegations. That answers your question about having to sell captives, no that rules does not apply. These are Outcast slavers, they lost their connection.

Alternative option to do the end run around the Outcasts Delegations not being able to take Alliances: us an elevated Chain Lord Leader.

If you just run an elevated Chain Lord of the Slave Guild as your leader for 280 credits (and give up on the underwhelming Shackleman its meh stats and inflexible Pit Fighter), you can then choose Merchant Guild-Slave Guild as their affiliation (as per BoO Page 20) and kit out your champions as Shaklemen and Pit Fighters using the equipment you can now access via the Merchant Guild: Slave Guild Affiliation.

The Original Delegation Shacklemen has equipment that add up to 185 credits which is a five credit discount before including the cost of his Delegation stats which has 5+ BS on a suspensor-less heavy weapon! - but one better wound cool and will stat than a hive scum.
Rebuild him as an Outcast Champion for 245 credits (55 credits more) with a Champion's Movement 5 3+BS and superior mental stats in every way except 1 worse Will and equivalent Int. You could later on kit a second Champion under this option as a Shackleman (during creation is ruled out - you'd run out of credits for the balancing hive scum bodycount unless you decide to ditch the chain glaive-wielding Pit Fighters equivalents).

Original Delegation Pit Fighters are 120 credit models with 100 credits of equipment included, almost the same profile as a Hive Scum but with an extra attack, 1 better cool and 6+BS...remaking them as Hive Scum will cost 130 credits and land you with one less attack and cool but a 4+ BS...
Or make a basic Outcast Champion that has been equipped as a Pit Fighter for 160 credits with the better 3+ WS, 4+ BS, W2 and better mental stats that unfortunately doesn't have the extra attack in profile, but that's what skill selection is for!

Definitely run it past your local Arbitrator, they might want to look at which of the Delegation Special Rules carry over.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

I'll also point out that in the rules for each Delegation there is a list of rules on the same page as the model profiles titled "(Name of Delegation) Special Rules". These rules are worded in such a way that they only apply to gangs allied with that Delegation, and so do not apply to Outcasts Delegations.

Not all the Special Rules on the Delegation fighter profile pages always apply to the gangs allied.

Page 22 of Book of Outcasts: [After recruiting the delegation fighters] "[t]he remainder of your Stash may be spent as normal on Underhive Outcasts fighters; they all count as members of the Delegation for rules purposes".
The rules in question being the applicable rules for the delegation.

The general failure to make any reference to any special rules relevant to delegation models on page 22 makes it possible that the rules for the Delgations were meant to be included in the port, where applicable - overlooked rules in Necromunda being quite the endemic issue. Certainly when elevating a notional Fighter to Leader Status (on page 27) you are meant to include all the fighter's rules as per their profile.

Looking at said rules, the A Band Apart and Here to Help rules directly relate to organisational members of the delegations getting decent health care (eg: injuries always = Out Cold) when part of their originating organisation and the latter being about the controlling player being able to pick allied fighters when they have boon granting their use - they are likely not meant to be included [1] in importing the delegations to be regular gang fighters.

[1] Although the lack of an official way to hire a replacement delegation fighter when one is killed in an Outcast gang could be taken to imply A Band Apart is meant to be in effect to prevent such a possibility happening...and Outcast gangs are meant to have an absurdly large Scum to Leader/Champ ratio - leading to statistically likely bad gang composition in random selection scenarios- which lends credence to the possibility they are meant to be autoincluded as part of the base number via Here to Help....

Other examples: Light in Dark Places from the Pyromantic Conclave (House of Artifice page 82) iS a global rule for the effect of the fighters from the Conclave appearing on the table (ability to do "Lights Out" and flash grenade on point of expiry), A Promising Fighter for Slaver Entourage (page 94 House of Chains) could easily be ruled to refer to Hive Scum members of the Outcast gang (and is the type of rule you would want in a dedicated Slaver Entourage/Pit Fighter gang), Seconded to the Militia from House Greim (page 96) works fine on Hive Scum, etc.

Compared to all the special rules (Chem Alchemy, Faith dice, Gene Smithing, etc) the House Gangs get these are all pretty ineffectual and would be on the weaker power tiers.

Further into the special rules to the those attached to the Slaver Entourage fighters, the Slaver Entourage Hierarchy rule on the Chain Lord (Leader) is direct equivalent to the Gang Hierarchy (Leader) rule all leaders get, the Group Activation rules and equivalent hierarchchy rules on the champs too reflect the basic special rules for those fighter subtypes - not a problem. The Bodyguard and Indentured Fighters rules on the Pit Figher directly relate to the Chain Lord and Chain Lord and Shakleman respectively and are useless when those models die and can't be replaced (under the general interpretation of RAW, see above re: A Band Apart for an alternative interpretation), have no reference to an allied gang, and are very much relevant to the fighters specified in their rules.

Ask for an arbitrator call, in the absence of a FAQ/errata.

YakTribe itself seems to have kept its Outcasts mechanics discussion over here in Gangs and Loadouts - couldn't find the now-usual Errata thread for it.

You make some very good points, and I think we all agree it is up to Arbitrator interpretation.

Alternative option to do the end run around the Outcasts Delegations not being able to take Alliances: us an elevated Chain Lord Leader.

If you just run an elevated Chain Lord of the Slave Guild as your leader for 280 credits (and give up on the underwhelming Shackleman its meh stats and inflexible Pit Fighter), you can then choose Merchant Guild-Slave Guild as their affiliation (as per BoO Page 20) and kit out your champions as Shaklemen and Pit Fighters using the equipment you can now access via the Merchant Guild: Slave Guild Affiliation.

The Original Delegation Shacklemen has equipment that add up to 185 credits which is a five credit discount before including the cost of his Delegation stats which has 5+ BS on a suspensor-less heavy weapon! - but one better wound cool and will stat than a hive scum.
Rebuild him as an Outcast Champion for 245 credits (55 credits more) with a Champion's Movement 5 3+BS and superior mental stats in every way except 1 worse Will and equivalent Int. You could later on kit a second Champion under this option as a Shackleman (during creation is ruled out - you'd run out of credits for the balancing hive scum bodycount unless you decide to ditch the chain glaive-wielding Pit Fighters equivalents).

Original Delegation Pit Fighters are 120 credit models with 100 credits of equipment included, almost the same profile as a Hive Scum but with an extra attack, 1 better cool and 6+BS...remaking them as Hive Scum will cost 130 credits and land you with one less attack and cool but a 4+ BS...
Or make a basic Outcast Champion that has been equipped as a Pit Fighter for 160 credits with the better 3+ WS, 4+ BS, W2 and better mental stats that unfortunately doesn't have the extra attack in profile, but that's what skill selection is for!

Definitely run it past your local Arbitrator, they might want to look at which of the Delegation Special Rules carry over.

That's a good alternative with some trade off, some positive and some negative.

I would not let any of the delegation rules carry over in the Affiliation method because the FAQ says :gangs with a House Affiliation only counts as that House for scenario selection and campaign territory purposes. Now for some reason they did not apply this same wording to Guild, Criminal and Noble affiliations... probably because Houses get enhanced territory boons and the rest do not, but for the sake of future proofing and constancy they should have IMHO. Although maybe they left them out on purpose to allow these special rules while explicitly disallowing House Affiliation to use genesmithing for example.

 

[irishwizz]

Thanks a lot for all your insight, that's very valuable.

Problem about asking the arbitrator is, I'm the arbitrator

I did not think about the two gangers becoming useless without the leader. Let's see how our campaign goes i guess it will serve as a test to know bow to play those, but i suspect that gang to be quite underpowered (I don't mind) aside of its 4 "big" ones.

It will be fun to tell stories with those

 

[libratorr]

Thanks a lot for all your insight, that's very valuable.

Problem about asking the arbitrator is, I'm the arbitrator

I did not think about the two gangers becoming useless without the leader. Let's see how our campaign goes i guess it will serve as a test to know bow to play those, but i suspect that gang to be quite underpowered (I don't mind) aside of its 4 "big" ones.

It will be fun to tell stories with those

It really depends on how much emphasis you want to put on narrative vs game balance. If the latter is i portant to your group and you don't want to go with the interpretation I offered above, you could try offering the option to advance a surviving champ to leader as you would in another gang when a leader dies.
Alternatively tresurrection packages in the Apocrypha book are also pretty popular, and narratively rich, and in keeping with the theme that Outcasts descend even further the longer they stay in the underhive...

 

[irishwizz]

It's a campaign that's supposed to introduce players to the game, so i think we'll see when the need happens.

What's the tresurrection? In which apocrypha?

Thanks!

 

[libratorr]

It's a campaign that's supposed to introduce players to the game, so i think we'll see when the need happens.

What's the tresurrection? In which apocrypha?

Thanks!

The rules set was first published in April 2020 White Dwarf, but has been republished in the recent Necromunda Apocrypha book (link to a goonhammer article discussing the text).You can probably find it republished elsewhere with a bit of googling for Necromunda Resurrection Package...
Basically, you get the fighter back with a narrative and/or mechanical cost, usually one that could result in it being removed from play again after fulfilling a goal within the narrative. They're spicy fun.

 

[irishwizz]

I love that idea, thanks!

 

[manmanman]

Theres some ambiguity about whether some of the delegation rules should apply partly due to how you choose to determine whether the definition of the word allies, whether that includes members of your own gang or not. It does say that the only alliance the delegation can take is their own faction (whatever that means) and it states that any scum hired are considered members of the delegation so its a bit murky. It doesnt say anywhere that the delegation rules shouldnt apply, its just how some of the abilities are phrased as to whether they should apply or not.