Radical YCE: Rescue Mission Alternative

[JawRippa]

While YCE discussions mainly touch upon core rules and not campaign things, I feel that discussing the problem of captured fighters and rescue mission can be done in separation from other campaign mechanics or even Necromunda version that you are playing.

To me everything related to captured fighters just screams bad game design, which may not be obvious at first:

1. The ransom price does not have any guidelines or rules, so naturally a player with an optimal approach will set the price lower than the actual fighter's cost (otherwise there is no point in buying them back other than sentimental value), but high enough to squeeze the most money out of the opposing gang. This sets captured fighter's gang into a lose-lose scenario if it tries to pay ransom, as refusing to pay ransom (and failing to get the fighter back) means buying new fighter instead of the old one which leads to losing more credits than paying for ransom. Meanwhile an optimally picked ransom will be affordable but leave you with no credits left. Additionally, since we are operating with full fighters' cost and the cost of their weapons, and since paying ransom means that one gang directly syphons credits from other gang's rating, this can lead to a very sudden change in ratings, if the captured fighter was an expensive champion with a heavy weapon, or if there were a lot of captured fighters. This can potentialy destabilise an ongoing campaign.
2. An unpredictable nature of capturing fighters means that you never know when you might need an additional time for an unplanned rescue game. This means that often players are forced to go with the ransom route, even if the ransom in question is too high/too low, as it pressures both parties. Not being able to play the rescue mission against the captor could potentially lead to fighters staying in a 'captured limbo' state.
3. The actual rescue mission is not fun because of how bad rules for sneak attack and sentries are, but thats a completely separate issue.

So, to solve the issues above I suggest the following:

1. The ransom price cannot exceed 1/3 of the fighter's cost, including their weapons and gear. Alternative ways of paying up ransom such as items from stash, territory control etc are still a fair game, but if 1/3 of fighter's cost in credits is offered, the captor cannot ask for anything else.
2. Captured fighter's destiny has to be resolved right after the game. If the ransom cannot be payed, or captor refuses to give the hostage back, players should be able to resolve this is in random outcome fashion and with as few rolls possible to keep things quick.
3. If both players agree, instead of #2, a proper 'Rescue mission' can be played. This means that you play a random scenario as usual, but with an additional reward of gaining control of the captured fighter by the winning gang.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

I completely agree with the principle, in fact I could labour the point even heavier about how bad it is!

I agree with solution 1, but not necessarily 2 or 3.

If gang A has had a fighter captured, chances are they're rather worse for wear compared to gang B. Immediately fighting another game is likely to go the same way, if not force the scales further in the same direction.


My solution would honestly be to automatically sell the fighter to the guilders.
From there, gang A has the ability to play a mission to rescue their fighter (public execution works well, as do other like Escort mission).
This puts the onus on gang A, and circumvents any of the problems around arranging a game.

 

[JawRippa]

The suggestion below is based on ideas from this NCE thread. I've tried to go with K.I.S.S. and keep things quick to resolve.

If the captured fighter's gang decides to return them by force, both gangs secretly pick up to 3 available fighters. Captors are considered to be defenders, while captured fighter's gang are attackers. After making their choice, both sides roll a D6 for each of their selected fighters. Each roll of 4+ is a success. Whichever side gets more successes gets to keep the captured fighter. In addition:

1. A natural roll of 1 sends the fighter into recovery and has to miss their next game. Defender ignores up to one such result.
2. Leaders and Champions increase their roll by +1, while Juves reduce their roll by -1.
3. Attackers with silenced weapons count a natural roll of 6 as two successes instead of one.
4. Defenders with Bio-scanners or other appropriate wargear count a natural roll of 6 as two successes instead of one.

If the outcome was a draw, the hostage is freed along with their equipment, but a random injury roll is made for them.

A problem that I see with this method:

• Fighter's value and equipment does not outcome that much (aside from #3 and #4 exceptions). This means that ideally you'll send the cheapest fighters possible, since you do not want to risk expensive fighters missing the next game. Also gangs with elite fighters seem to be worse in both freeing and guarding captured fighters.

 

[JawRippa]

My solution would honestly be to automatically sell the fighter to the guilders.
From there, gang A has the ability to play a mission to rescue their fighter (public execution works well, as do other like Escort mission).
This puts the onus on gang A, and circumvents any of the problems around arranging a game.

How do you play such mission without an enemy player?

I'd leave option #3, as sometimes players could dedicate their time for an extra game if it meant building a cool narrative. It should be an option though, not an enforced rule.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

How do you play such mission without an enemy player?

I'd leave option #3, as sometimes players could dedicate their time for an extra game if it meant building a cool narrative. It should be an option though, not an enforced rule.

You would play it with whichever enemy player was available.

 

[ntw3001]

I would just... not have it. Scrub it off the injury table. Maybe rescues are good for narrative, but in my experience they're just not very good. Not exciting games, no fond memeories created.

Alternatively, bin out on the whole negotiation/rescue element. You capture a guy, take him to the proper authorities, get a little bit of reward money (maybe a flat rate, maybe based on status within the gang, not much reason to base it on actual value), and it's over to the owner. Their guy is kept in custody and they can pay some bounty to get him back. Maybe after each game there's a chance he gets shuffled off to the mines and is lost to history, to give a little urgency. And let's let him keep the gear, because while it would make sense to steal his guns before turning him in, it's just not going to make the system any better.

 

[JawRippa]

I would just... not have it. Scrub it off the injury table. Maybe rescues are good for narrative, but in my experience they're just not very good. Not exciting games, no fond memeories created.

I feel that bounty hunters and wild west's vibes of capturing various gang scum 'Dead or Alive' is an integral part of Necromunda, so we can't just cross it off. Also both new and old game have a lot of mechanics that interract with capturing fighters.
So we need these mechanics, just have to flesh the 'freeing captured fighter' part, if the ransom cannot be payed, or captor simply refuses to return the guy. There are also situations where captured fighter is gone forever if not freed, such as chaos rituals, scavies eating them or captured fighter being an actual outlaw.

You would play it with whichever enemy player was available.

That just feels too off thematically. I should be dealing with the gang which captured fighter, not guilders. What if the gang in question can't sell the fighter at all, such as chaos cult?

If gang A has had a fighter captured, chances are they're rather worse for wear compared to gang B. Immediately fighting another game is likely to go the same way, if not force the scales further in the same direction.

True, but I'm not talking about an actual scenario, but post-battle roll. We have things like territory income or various whacky events such as mine cave-ins. Even if the hostage's gang got beaten up pretty badly, they should be able to spare a few fighters to make post-battle rolls.

 

[JawRippa]

I would just... not have it. Scrub it off the injury table. Maybe rescues are good for narrative, but in my experience they're just not very good. Not exciting games, no fond memeories created.

After thinking it over for a lot of time, I'm starting to think that you are correct. If we cut rescue anyway (simplifying it into mini-game is basically the same as cutting it), then there is little point in having capture, as the whole thing is supposed to be a narrative hook.

To keep the narrative feel, perhaps merging it with Memorable death could do the trick? Say, Memorable death is on 63+. 66 would be Fate worse than Death, which is exactly like Memorable death (kills fightere for good and gives the killer D3XP) but in addition your gang gains D6x5cr from selling them into slavery.
It should not be too feels-bad for the enemy, as the fighter was 'dead' anyway.
Certain thematic weapons for capturing fighters (web guns, stun grenades, carbines, shock batons etc) could treat any Memorable death result as Fate worse than Death.

And gangs like Chaos cult or Scavies could sacrifice/eat the captive instead of taking D6x5cr to gain some sort of bonus.

 

[ntw3001]

That sounds good. It keeps a bit of narrative so players can have grudges, but doesn't create any logistical challenges or weird limbo situations.