Radical YCE: skill tables

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
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So after some tinkering, here is a 1.1 draft for the reworked skill tables. My goal was to make it possible to roll randomly on any skill table with no chance of duds. You can select skills in two ways: pick from primary (but you can't pick a skill which someone else in your gang already knows) or you can randomly pick from secondary or primary and get a random +1 mental stat as a reward.
Note that these skills are desinged to be used with the YCE core rulebook.

1.0 Old draft

  1. Blurry Advance: If this fighter has a 'Hard target' condition when shot at a successful initiative check gives the enemy additional -1 to hit. This removes 'Hard target' after the shooting is resolved.
  2. Acrobatic: Fighter can pass through enemies, ignores 1" while moving and they can engage enemies using any route. In addition, they can reroll any initiative checks when traversing terrain.
  3. Dodge: Fighter has a 6+++ which can be used alongside other special saves (usually only 1 special save is allowed)
  4. Momentum: Fighter gains 'Hard target' after making a single Move action. In addition, if at the start of activation this fighter had a 'Hard target' and they make a Charge action, they can add +2" to that charge. This allows to exceed maximum charge range of 12" up to 14".
  5. Spring up: Unchanged.
  6. Sprint: Unchanged.

  1. Body Slam: Whenever this fighter initiates Fight, test Strength. On success reduce enemy weapon skill by 1 until the end of this Fight.
  2. Bulging Biceps: Can equip Unwieldy weapon in one hand. In addition, counts as suspensors with Unwieldy ranged weapon. If fighter already has suspensors, gain +1 to AM, since this fighter can carry more ammo than normal.
  3. Hard as Nails: Whenever this fighter has to roll on Lasting Injury table, roll a D6; on 5+ don't. In addition this fighter cannot be pushed, dragged or physically moved against their will in any way.
  4. Iron Man: Flesh wounds do not reduce fighter's toughness, but they go OOA if their number becomes equal or more compared to their toughness.
  5. Hurl: When attacking with hand thrown grenade without 'Single Shot' weapon trait, you can resolve 3 blasts centered in the same spot, one after another. They all scatter automatically and used grenades automatically run out.
  6. Walk it off: Whenever this fighter makes two 'Move' actions in a row, either restore 1 wound or remove 1 flesh wound.

  1. Combat master: reroll 1 enemy defence die and ignore being outnumbered.
  2. Counter attack: if at least 1 enemy attack failed to hit for any reason, reroll 1 retaliation attack.
  3. Brutal strike: Natural hit rolls of 5 and 6 can only be cancelled with a natural roll of 6 on a defence die.
  4. Disarming lunge: Weapon gains Disarm. If it had Disarm, it disarms on 5,6 instead of 6.
  5. Parry mastery: Weapon gains Parry. If it had Parry, you can roll 1 additional defence die (but you still can't exceed enemy attack dice)
  6. Footwork: Pass WS test when targetted with Fight action. On success, reduce opponent's attacks by 1, but no less than 1.
  7. Step Aside: Once per round initiative test to cancel 1 hit in CC, counts as special save.
(there are 7 skills, but only 6 will be used)

  1. Hidden Blade: This fighter is equipped with a 0 cr. cost 'fighting knife' in addition to 3 other weapons. This weapon can never be disarmed or taken away. Fighter gains +1A which can only be done with this weapon. In addition, whenever this particular weapon triggers backstab, it ignores any saves.
  2. Escape Artist: Once per round an Active fighter can move up to (M"/2) and face any direction when Charged. In addition they can Retreat as a simple action and never suffer retaliation attacks.
  3. Hide: If this fighter has not done any of these actions (Shoot, Charge, Fight), they can pass intellect check at the end of activation. On success, they are considered to be out of LOS if partially obscured by terrain until the start of their next activation or until they lose Active status.
  4. Infiltrate: Fighter can enter reinforcements even if the scenario does not have any. They can be deployed as a reinforcement at the start of any round within 12" of any friendly fighters but no closer than 8" from enemies. When deployed they can make a free Take cover action if they wish.
  5. Lie Low: When pinned behind cover relative to shooter, pass an initiative check. On success, gain +1 armour for partial cover or +2 armour for full cover against for that shooting sequence.
  6. Overwatch: As is, but does not work on templates/blasts and does not end activation when the target is hit.

  1. Berserker: Fighter gains +1A, +1STR,+1CL, +1M" for every flesh wound they have. When active or engaged this fighter can inflict 1 flesh wound to themselves as a simple action.
  2. Fearsome: Once per enemy activation, when an enemy attempts to Fight and selects this fighter, they have to pass a willpower check or end their activation. After this fighter makes a Coup de Grace, this skill is upgraded to Terrifying; in addition to previous effects activating enemies within 6" have to pass a cool check or become broken.
  3. Impetuous: Once per activation, after this fighter makes a Coup de Grace, they can restore one spent action. In addition, this fighter can Fight as a simple action.
  4. Nerves of Steel: Unchanged.
  5. True Grit: Unchanged.
  6. Unstoppable: At the end of fighter's activation you may roll a D6; on 4+ remove 1 fleshwound from them. If this fighter is recovering and has no flesh wounds, roll an additional injury die and select one to resolve.

  1. Commanding Presence: Group activation of this fighter can activate fighters within 6" instead of 3" and can activate 1 additional fighter.
  2. Mentor: Get 3XP after mentor survives the fight (they did not receive Memorable death and were not captured). Distribute it between any other fighters who took part, 1XP per fighter.
  3. Inspirational: Use Simple action to test LD; on success make another visible pinned fighter stand up.
  4. Regroup: Test LD at the start of the end phase; on success fighters within 6" lose broken, insanity and can assist on recovery while pinned.
  5. Cover me!: Test LD when hit with non-template, non-blast weapon. On success swap with fighter within 3", they get hit instead (if multiple hits occur such as a hit by 'Rapid Fire' weapon, they all have to be resolved against swapped fighter).
  6. Battle plan: Once per fight may reroll priority roll after all players have rolled their priority dice.
  7. Tactical Deployment: When deployed can either Move(Simple) or Take Cover(Simple) as a free action. Up to two other fighters deployed this turn can do the same. Works when deployed as reinforcements.
(there are 7 skills, but only 6 will be used)

  1. Fast Shot: Shoot as simple with non-template, non-blast weapon, but any shoot actions after the first are at -1 to hit.
  2. Gunfighter: Unchanged, but can carry 1 additional Sidearm in addition to 3 weapons.
  3. Fire Discipline: This fighter ignores Unstable on weapons. In addition, if the fighter's non-template,non-blast ranged attack misses, they can ignore rolled ammo symbols on firepower dice.
  4. Marksman: If rolled a natural 6 to hit, can swap 1 Flesh wound into Serious injury and vice versa.
  5. Power Shot: If aimed, weapon gains an additional Knockback trait. If it had it, knockbacks up to 2" instead of 1".
  6. Tactical Reload: Once per activation can Reload as a free action. Successful reload gives +1 to hit to the next Shoot action with that weapon during current activation.

  1. Armour monger: Whenever this fighter is hit for the first time, they can reroll an armour roll (or roll a 6+ if armour save was canceled due to weapon's AP). On a successful Intellect check before the battle, one other friendly fighter also gets this bonus.
  2. Connected: Something to do with rarity.
  3. Fixer: Whenever you collect income, gain +D3x10 cr. Recommendation to buff it to D3x20 if the general income is big (such as in 'Law and Misrule' campaign).
  4. Medicae: When assisting a friendly fighter that fighter does not get a Flesh Wound when recovering. In addition, this fighter can allow one another fighter to ignore any Lasting injury result on 5+ except for Memorable Death after the battle.
  5. Munitioneer: Once per fight can drop an Ammo cache within 1" as a free action.
  6. Ballistic Expert: When aiming with non-'Melta', non-'Grenade' weapon choose one: increase long distance by short distance or ignore hard target. In addition, once per activation can measure from themselves to any visible point on the battlefield.

  1. Vox Threat: an active or engaged fighter can do this action once per activation: select visible enemy and pass CL. On success, that enemy has to activate last and can't initiate nor be a part of group activations as if he was a part of reinforcements.
  2. Restraint protocols: when this fighter takes an enemy ooa via CC attacks or Coup de Grace, enemies within 9" have to pass nerve checks and enemies within 3" do so with additional penalty of -1.
  3. Non-verbal communication: Once per round when another active friendly fighter within 6" and LOS gets targetted by non-template, non-blast ranged attack test LD. On success, the target is pinned and the attack automatically misses.
  4. Teamwork: this fighter can never be hit by friendly ranged attacks. Ignore him when randomising hits after shooting into CC.
  5. Breach & Clear: This fighter can Shoot as a free action while using a hand grenade with range of Sx3".
  6. Threat Response: Can spend Ready marker if to countercharge/counterfight if an enemy finishes a charge or initiates a fight within 6".

  1. Tide of faithful: If this fighter takes part in the battle, their starting crew can include one additional available fighter with the lowest cost (above scenario's limit). If the entire gang is deployed at the start of scenario, you may reroll a failed bottle check once per battle.
  2. Martydrom: When another friendly fighter within 3" becomes OOA, they may test willpower. On success, do not remove them, instead they become active (or engaged if within 1" of the enemy). They are removed either at the end of their next activation or if they receive any unsaved damage.
  3. Protected by the flock: If this fighter is targetted by a ranged attack, each friendly fighter who is an eligible target and is not harder to hit during the target priority test gives an additional -2 penalty to it.
  4. Unshakable Conviction: When this fighter is selected by the Coup de Grace action, give them 1 flesh wound instead of removing them from the battlefield.
  5. Crucible of Devotion: once per round pass LD when another injured friendly fighter activates within 9". On success, that fighter stands up for free and activates as normal, but becomes Seriously Injured at the end of their activation. This does not trigger nerve tests.
  6. Zealot: Whenever this fighter sends an enemy OOA via close combat attacks or Coup de Grace, they restore 1 wound (up to their max on profile) or remove 1 flesh wound from themselves. In addition, they receive +1LD and +1CL until the end of battle.

Suggestions and criticism are welcome. Do you see any obvious duds or must-haves?

Edit: added Agility, Brawn, Ferocity and Cunning.
Edit x2: made a .pdf draft for all the compiled skill tables, link is in the OP
Edit x3: made 1.1 draft with @Kiro The Avenger and @Jayward. It has lots of skill polish alongside the rework of problematic skills for Palanite Drill and Fanatism
 
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almic85

Cranky Git
Oct 30, 2014
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Interesting updates to the skills. I’m not across all the changes you made for your YCE document so some of these comments may be wrong.

Generally you seem to make exceptions for Template weapons only. Should this include Blast weapons as well?

Leadership skills look pretty good but have the following comments.
Mentor. Is it intended to be used only if the fighter took part in the battle or is it usable even if they did not take part?

Inspirational. This skill looks like a leadership based version of Nerves of Steel and Jump Up. Do we really need a new universally available version of those skills?

Cover me! Should this also not apply to blast weapons?
How does it work with a rapid fire weapon? I assume it will only move one successful hit.
This skill might benefit from extending the range to 6”.

I will skip the combat skills as I’m not across the combat mechanic you ended up using.

Shooting
Fast Shot. This skill should probably be restricted from being used with Template, Blast and Rapid Fire weapons to further tone it back.

Fire discipline. Not sure it should remove Unstable. Blast weapons should also be excluded from this skill.

Marksman. Is it a natural 6 for to hit or to wound rolls?

Power shot. This skill doesn’t really make sense to me. What extra skill can someone have that makes a bullet/laser shoot harder? I would probably put Hip Shooting back in instead of this skill but add a negative effect for using template weapons similar to what the Orlock Wreckers have (50/50 chance that it backwashes on the shooter).

Tactical reload. This just seems like a dud skill in the list. There is an Orlock specific skill called Fast Hands that does the same thing and it generally doesn’t get taken by anyone I know because it’s underpowered.
Does it really need the “on the next shot” wording if it is restricted to that activation? It stops fast shot from getting the bonus twice but is it a big enough exploit to care about?

Savant
Armour Monger. It’s an interesting skill but I can see arguments occurring about if it is the first time a fighter has made an armour save or not. I think it might be better to make this fighter ignore a single point of negative AP for the duration of the game.

Fixer. I think this skill would work better if the fighter was able to reroll a dice for a territory or racket that has random income rather than give a straight income in itself.

Ballistic Expert. I don’t think you need to include the ability to measure once per activation. It’s already a very strong skill of it lets you shoot a plasmagun 36” or a meltagun 18”. Letting a person measure the distance before deciding if they need the extra range or the reduction in cover modifier just makes this skill a little bit too powerful.

I’m going to ignore the Palanite and Fanatism skills tables as I don’t really use those gangs so don’t care enough to look at them.
 
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JawRippa

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Mar 31, 2017
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Generally you seem to make exceptions for Template weapons only. Should this include Blast weapons as well?
I was implying both blasts and flame templates, technically they all use templates. I'll add blast to avoid confusion.

Mentor. Is it intended to be used only if the fighter took part in the battle or is it usable even if they did not take part?

Inspirational. This skill looks like a leadership based version of Nerves of Steel and Jump Up. Do we really need a new universally available version of those skills?

Cover me! Should this also not apply to blast weapons?
How does it work with a rapid fire weapon? I assume it will only move one successful hit.
This skill might benefit from extending the range to 6”.
  • Mentor is meant to work after a fighter took part in battle, but maybe thats not fair compared to Fixer. Just make it so it works whenever you collect income. Basically +3XP income.
  • Inspirational fills the role of Overseer but without going over the board.
  • Cover me! should force all hits onto swapped fighter. I think it is pretty bonkers as is, you can use juves as literal refractor fields against targetted attacks. 6" would be silly.
Fast Shot. This skill should probably be restricted from being used with Template, Blast and Rapid Fire weapons to further tone it back.

Fire discipline. Not sure it should remove Unstable. Blast weapons should also be excluded from this skill.

Marksman. Is it a natural 6 for to hit or to wound rolls?

Power shot. This skill doesn’t really make sense to me. What extra skill can someone have that makes a bullet/laser shoot harder? I would probably put Hip Shooting back in instead of this skill but add a negative effect for using template weapons similar to what the Orlock Wreckers have (50/50 chance that it backwashes on the shooter).

Tactical reload. This just seems like a dud skill in the list. There is an Orlock specific skill called Fast Hands that does the same thing and it generally doesn’t get taken by anyone I know because it’s underpowered.
Does it really need the “on the next shot” wording if it is restricted to that activation? It stops fast shot from getting the bonus twice but is it a big enough exploit to care about?
  • Fast Shot: yeah, I forgot to add it. I feel that it might be still vastly better than the rest of shooting skills.
  • Fire Discipline: I think that without Unstable it'd be very very meh. Perhaps intellect check could act as a save against Unstable trigger?
  • Marksman: A natural 6 to hit roll, not that it matters too much.
  • Power Shot: the flavour here is that you destabilise a fighter with a well placed shot and throw their balance off, so they get knocked back. I guess the name failed to reflect this. Also the skill is pretty meh now that I look at it, it could use something like Concussion? I'm really not a fan of hip shooting, as it allows extra action basically and is really crazy when combined with Melta for example.
  • Tactical reload: Its probably a dud, yeah. In general, I'd prefer for shooting skills to be below average, since shooting is so strong in general.
Armour Monger. It’s an interesting skill but I can see arguments occurring about if it is the first time a fighter has made an armour save or not. I think it might be better to make this fighter ignore a single point of negative AP for the duration of the game.

Fixer. I think this skill would work better if the fighter was able to reroll a dice for a territory or racket that has random income rather than give a straight income in itself.

Ballistic Expert. I don’t think you need to include the ability to measure once per activation. It’s already a very strong skill of it lets you shoot a plasmagun 36” or a meltagun 18”. Letting a person measure the distance before deciding if they need the extra range or the reduction in cover modifier just makes this skill a little bit too powerful.
  • Armour Monger: I like your take on it. Do you think allowing to give Armour monger bonus to 1 more fighter on intellect test pre-fight is too much or fair?
  • Fixer: To be honest, I'm not a fan of random rolls for income in general, because it usually just a time waster and post-battle is already a very busy sequence. I'd prefer to make them all fixed.
  • Ballistic Expert: Fair enough. I think that the skill needs to be forbidden from benefitting hand thrown grenades and melta weapons.
 

Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
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I'll try to work my way through these today. Might take me a few goes!

First thought is that your aim of making each table have no duds to promote rolling randomly is going to be really hard. Even with a random mental stat, the opportunity cost of a skill is really high. You are looking at multiple battle's worth of XP, and you are competing against the completely controllable and generally more powerful option of picking WS/BS/T.

Because of that high opportunity cost skills have to be very good, or completely unique (i.e. can't be replicated by equipment). To promote random rolling they should also be as general as possible. For example, Gunfighter might be okay, but if your person has the wrong weapons it's useless (Old Gunfighter! You may have changed it)

So I'll look at the skills individually, and then give a 'would I roll' opinion

Agility:
One that leaps out at me here is Dodge. This is poor design; you've just gone to all that effort of consolidating the save rules and making special saves to immediately introduce an exception. Not that the skill is bad; a free save is a free save.

I don't think Momentum works as written, since you lose Hard Target at the start of your activation. But also another example of introducing a general principle and then adding an exception. I'd have to give this one a go to see how it was; when I tried a game with Hard Target it didn't really come up because we hadn't gone for much shooting.

Blurry Advance is a bit easier to deal with; it gives you a characteristic check to maybe make a single shot harder to hit, whereupon you become easier to hit. So the skill's effect is essentially neutral, and is only useful in the first place if you have decent initiative and a specific conditional modifier.

Spring Up and Sprint remain unchanged; Spring Up is the best skill in the tree by miles, Sprint is useful.

Acrobatic is a niche skill. I appreciate that the wording lets it apply to barricades and dangerous terrain, as opposed to just barricades as now. But having made extensive use of the tactics card that grants your whole gang Acrobatic, I can safely say that this skill is not a lot of use.

I'd say you have a 50% chance of getting a good skill from this list, so I wouldn't roll.
 
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JawRippa

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First thought is that your aim of making each table have no duds to promote rolling randomly is going to be really hard.
I agree that the task in next to impossible, as there will always be 1-2 superior skills compared to the rest. I guess we could go for a more humble goal of having it so 'not optimal' skills are still serviceable whem randomed. A player will have to roll skills randomly at some point, since they can't just spam the same skill over and over again by picking.
  • Dodge: I agree on your feedback 100%. I'm not a fan of GW approach of introducing basic rules only for them to be ignored. The problem with dodge is that at 6+++ it falls off as soon as you get any other kind of special save and at 5+++ it'd be too good for a skill. Perhaps a Dodge could be either a 6+++ or reroll 1's for another special save?
  • Momentum: What do you mean by ignoring core rules? Rising max charge distance? RAW it should work, because it only requires a 'hard target' on activation, and to do charge during that activation.
  • Blurry advance: The skill is deceptive. I think it is a lot more useful than you think. Generally if you are hit and pinned behind cover, nothing can target you anymore. So ideally if you are being shot, you want to be pinned by something weak, so a special weapon does not deal heavy damage to you. In this case Blurry helps a lot - don't use it against weak weapons and only use it for something like plasmagun shot. Also Blurry is always good if you are already behind heavy cover.
  • Acrobatic is a niche skill, I agree, but it allows attacking someone outside their vision arc even if they are facing you directly. Which could be nasty with backstabs or when getting around frontal armour. Also it helps not only with barricades/dangerous terrain but with leaping over gaps and leaping down. I was thinking about throwing Clamber in there as well, but then realised that the skill would become overburdened with rules.
 
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Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
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Brawn suffers from a lack of focus: you've got two shooting skills, one melee skill, and three toughness skills. Straight away that makes it less attractive to roll; if my shooting character rolls Body Slam, it's a bust. If my melee character rolls Bulging Biceps it's essentially a bust. In fact it's even poor for most shooting fighters; it's an incredible skill on the right character, but essentially useless on any non-heavy weapon character.

I think you'd be better served by taking a look at Brawn and Ferocity and redistributing the skills so Brawn skills are based on resilience and defence, and Ferocity skills are based on strength and attack. That way a player knows roughly what they're getting, the theme is consistent, and it becomes easier to make the whole table attractive. Like, 'I want my fighter to be tough, so I'll roll Brawn' is a much easier sell than 'I want my fighter to be tough, so I have to take my chances on getting the right roll in Brawn or Ferocity'

The skills themselves:
Hurl is very strong as written. I would absolutely throw three Incendiary Bombs or Blasting Charges to absolutely carpet bomb an area, and there's essentially no opportunity cost as you run out of grenade ammo in less than 3 shots basically every time. Also, as written, it's either completely useless on Krak and Melta bombs, or grants them 3 blast templates. Neither is ideal! But having a grenade skill is a good idea, since they can be given to anyone and don't take weapon slots. It'll never be an unusable pick

Bulging Biceps is mandatory on heavy weapon characters, does nothing on anyone else, and is easily replicated by spending credits. I know it's a fan favourite, but that's because it's so mandatory. But from a game design point of view you're probably better off cutting the skill entirely since it's really only a discount on Suspensors.

Body Slam might be good, I'd need to see it in action. But as a melee-based skill I'd rather see it in Ferocity

The other three I really like. They're thematic, they have interesting effects that can't be replicated by credits for the most part, and they are useful on any character.

On Brawn in general, I wouldn't roll. It's close; four skills that could be picked on anyone, but I'd rather save the extra 3xp to make sure I got them. But if Body Slam, Bulging Biceps and Hurl were replaced with Nerves of Steel, True Grit, and Unstoppable to make this the 'tough' skill tree I would absolutely roll.
 

Jayward

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With Momentum, it triggers off of having Hard Target. Your Hard Target rules say you lose the condition when you activate. So you activate, lose Hard Target, then declare a charge with no Hard Target and so don't get the +2"

You introduced a general principle that a charge could not be more than 12". Then introduced this skill saying '...unless...'. It's a minor thing, but this sort of creep is how GW end up with such demented rulesets. I'd rather not see it introduced at such an early stage
 

Jayward

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Combat:

Counterattack did need toning down given how your defence tests work, but it compares incredibly poorly to simply taking +1WS, which makes all your reactions, defence tests, and attacks better all the time.
Same with Combat Master. +1 WS gives you more net hits and better defence as well, and costs less. This is just like parry for a defence test, and Parry is a weak ability a lot of the time.

Disarm remains the same, except people using defence will have fewer reaction attacks so perhaps the worst skill in the tree did get worse.

Footwork and Step Aside essentially have the same effect; you are making a characteristic check to negate an attack. Don't need both, but either one is the best of this tree. Again, these are straight upgrades on Combat Master.

Brutal Strike feels like yet another a straight upgrade on Combat Master... making twice as many of your hits unstoppable is definitely a step up from a parry effect for defence.

Parry has an interesting extra effect; a free defence dice is useful in your system. The core effect is still poor though. When do the parry rerolls happen in your system? Before defence rolls cancel, or after? One is significantly more powerful than the other.
To be honest I'd consider reworking the Parry trait to have the free defence dice be the core effect, with the Parry skill potentially granting an extra one. But this is always going to be a less useful skill given that you can just buy a Parry weapon.

As it stands I wouldn't roll on this table, at all. There's two useful effects that are duplicates (so I assume only one will survive) and one that might be interesting (Brutal Strike). Everything else I can either buy on a weapon or I'm better off taking extra WS or attacks.
 

Jayward

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Cunning:
These aren't clearly written, so it's difficult to judge their power. But my first impression is that this is the de facto combat tree.

Hidden Knife: It's a free attack, and it sometimes ignores saves. That's very strong; I would argue that this is a better combat skill than literally everything in the combat tree, so it perhaps feels out of place here. I like the theme, though.

Escape Artist: When does this trigger? If it's when the charge is declared you become very, very difficult to charge. If it's when the charge reaches, you are either completely impossible to charge or it does nothing because a move action doesn't let you leave engagement. If it's meant to be a free retreat action (where you can't suffer retaliation attacks) then you are still almost impossible to charge. Again, a better combat skill than the entire combat tree. Also, as written, this would make you immune to all retaliation attacks from a fight action too.

Hide: Int check to be untargetable is incredible for melee characters, and the wording makes it very, very good for psykers who can basically make themselves into a pillbox that you can't interact with whilst it shoots you with its brain. Once again, a better combat skill than the entire combat tree

Lie Low: This is either incredibly niche or incredibly powerful, depending on the timing. Do you test every time you are hit? And do you test after you are hit? Or at the time of the declaration of the shot? Or during your activation? If you can test this when hit it's kind of free armour, but after that it only applies when you are in an untargetable state anyway. So yeah, not sure of the intent or the mechanics of this one.

Overwatch: Still very powerful. The stipulation about the activation ending is mostly moot, as if they are hit they will be pinned 99% of the time so they'll lose their second action.

Infiltrate: Again, wording needs some work. Does this apply if the fighter is in the crew, or does it allow fighters who were not in the crew to come in? Apart from that, yeah, strong skill still. Toned down, but still a unique capability.

Having a hard time coming up with an overall line on this tree. Some of the skills are incredible for melee, others for shooters, others in general. I think it's the highest power tree so far, so I can imagine rolling for melee characters. I'm not sure that this is the intended theme, though?
 

Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
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Ferocity was one that was always close to being good enough to roll. When I started playing you could consolidate into combat so the only absolutely duff one was Fearsome. So I don't think this one needed much tweaking.

Berzerker: This is a great skill. Very thematic, and gives an interesting trade. I don't really see why a Berzerker would get more calm and collected as they raged, so the improvement to Cool seems out of place. And I don't think the self-inflicted damage is really necessary. But a very good one.

Fearsome: Don't really get what's going on here. You've upgraded to fight actions and ending activations, whereas before it was Charges and ending actions. But then what's going on with Terrifying? You upgrade to a different skill that you don't list here, and then you stick an extra rider on that that gives you a permanent fear bubble. Effects notwithstanding, this is a messy skill. A simple upgrade to including shooting actions would have sufficed, I think.

Impetuous: I was wondering what you would do with this. I've played games where you could consolidate into combat, and this skill is nice then. But you already do half of its job with your consolidate rules, so this did need changing. And Rain of Blows does feel like a Ferocity skill. But just granting a free action is very powerful; letting you move 5-6", shooting another enemy, dropping a smoke grenade... that extra action is probably enough on its own.

The other three remain excellent skills, and the slight improvement to Unstoppable makes sense. But I'll stick to my comment made in 'Brawn' that it would be better to split these sort of skills by theme, so ferocity gets all the 'attack' skills and brawn gets all the 'tough' skills.

I would roll on this as it stands, but would rather the tree be reworked
 

Jayward

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Leadership: I really like some of these, but there's a couple that I'd hate to roll

Commanding Presence: Nice upgrade to the existing skill.

Mentor: This is pretty clever. It's not overpowered, it offers something that you can't get with credits, and it makes a nice decision point for whether you take a skill that increases your power or a skill that improves your overall development. Sticking with the theme of Leadership, I would probably tie it to a Ld roll

Inspirational: Massive fan of this. Pinning is a huge part of Necromunda, so having a skill that can work around it in the only universal skill tree is elegant. The Ld check fits the theme. My favourite skill on any list so far; just has a great feel to it. I would say that the 'visible' thing feels generous; if you have LoS you could yell at a guy to get up from the other side of the board.

Regroup: Eh. It was an okay skill, adding two highly circumstantial modifiers to it doesn't really elevate it. It's fine, but the effects don't feel like they link well

Battle Plan: A minor, once-per-fight effect is way too limiting

Tactical Deployment: Really interesting idea. I think, thematically, this would work better if it came in the priority phase of the round after deployment; they way you could respond to your opponents' deployments. Might need to add in something about priority order in case both sides have the skill. And also, the theme of Leadership so far has been Ld tests to help other people so I'd consider making it a Ld test to affect a number of friendly fighters. Can't really judge the power in a vacuum; I would have to try it out. probably weaker than the top 3 though

Cover me: On first read I liked this, but once I went over the whole skill tree I cooled on it somewhat. I get what you're going for, and it is a good effect, but all of the other effects help your other gang members so then having one that throws them under the bus feels a bit against the theme.

I think this is the tree with the most coherent theme to it. If Battle Plan didn't make the cut I might well roll on it. If cover me was replaced with a good support ability I almost certainly would.
 

Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
287
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Shooting is a tricky one; with your aim of letting all the trees be rollable, you need to have abilities that encompass all weapon types. So something like Gunfighter is always going to be a problem; it's not the power of Gunfighter that's the issue, it's that it only works for one very specific weapon combo.

Fast Shot, as written, allows for the firing of Heavy Weapons using a Simple Action. Not against this; it gives the skill universal use. But it does mean that it is the most powerful skill in the tree by an incredible margin. Given the high accuracy of everything, the negative on the second shot might not really be an issue.

Fire Discipline could probably just be the secondary effect; it's not one I'd pick, but it's a nice enough effect that I'd be fine with rolling it. Has the nice positive of working with almost every weapon. Saying non-template is somewhat redundant, as they can't miss. (never roll BS)

Marksman: Why 'Vice versa?' would I ever want to change a Seriously Injured to a Flesh Wound? This effect is also very similar to an existing weapon trait, Pulverise. Pulverise isn't on any ranged weapons that I'm aware of, so this could possibly be changed to giving ranged weapons that trait. This would make it more consistent (wouldn't need a 6) without being overpowering

Power Shot: Eh, relatively minor effect

Tactical Reload: Really situational.

Definitely not a roller here; one good skill, one okay skill, three minor effects and gunfighter being too specific.
 

Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
287
451
63
Savant:

Armour Monger: If something has a once-per-battle ability it should be really good. This isn't. I like the idea of an Int check to help a friendly, but I think the overall effect is very weak

Fixer is a very powerful skill. Old Orlocks dominated a campaign I played in just by taking Fixer on all their champs as a first skill; it leads to a very strong early campaign snowball. Making it twice as good just makes things worse!

Medicae is very nice; wording needs a bit of tidying but I get the intent. The second effect is why you take it; this is the Hard as Nails skill from your Brawn tree, but for anyone in the gang.

Munitioneer is just 'here, have a free 60c bit of wargear'. As I mentioned, I'm not a fan of skills that can be completely replicated by spending credits.

Ballistic Expert is a better shooting skill than most of the shooting skills. I'm assuming this is intended as a range increase, as opposed to copying a Telescopic sight. I don't think the pre-measure is needed, or the stipulation of non-melta

Some good effects, but Ballistic Expert kind of breaks the theme. All the rest are essentially support for the wider gang, and then you have one that makes you great at shooting.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,473
2,086
138
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
I had a few questions regarding current draft of skills:

1). How should the 'True Grit' work with pulverise? My suggestion is they cancel each other out to keep things simple.
2). 'Step Aside', now once per game but works for all hits in CC (you can choose when to use step aside after seeing opponent's rolls). Is the skill decent?
3). I'd like to change the 'Last Round' from shooting into something else, since the skill is closer to acting like a tactic card (a very lucky event rather than a result of skillful gun usage). I'd accept any ideas. Currently I have the following concept:

Mag Dump: After declaring the Shoot action and selecting the target via priority test, you may announce that you will 'mag dump' while Shooting. During this you get +1 to hit roll and if the target gets hit, you score 1 additional hit (so a single shot turns into two and three shots from rapid fire turn into four, etc). (I'm not sure how it should work with scattershot though)
 

Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
287
451
63
For True Grit and Pulverise I'd say that it should be roll 2 injury dice and pick one, and if it's a flesh wound Pulverise could then upgrade it. But that's not quite how it's worded right now

Step Aside becomes an odd one. On something like an Escher Champ it's essentially 'once per game you automatically win a combat' even if you get charged by a melee monster; that's something of a negative play experience.

Currently, unless Scattershot is reworked, it would cause 2 hits that both make D6 wound rolls. Thematically this skill feels off; you've reworked Fast Shot to be a reroll effect and then bought in what is essentially Fast Shot for non RF weapons. It might even be better, since you get an accuracy bonus and a bonus hit as part of one Basic action, so you can still stand up/move/aim and get the bonus here
 
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JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,473
2,086
138
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Step Aside becomes an odd one. On something like an Escher Champ it's essentially 'once per game you automatically win a combat' even if you get charged by a melee monster; that's something of a negative play experience.
I do agree on a negative experience, although constantly cancelling one hit on a 2+/3+/4+, after all defence dice cancels would still be very nasty (perhaps with less 'negative play experience' that losing 1 fight per game outright).

Currently, unless Scattershot is reworked, it would cause 2 hits that both make D6 wound rolls. Thematically this skill feels off; you've reworked Fast Shot to be a reroll effect and then bought in what is essentially Fast Shot for non RF weapons. It might even be better, since you get an accuracy bonus and a bonus hit as part of one Basic action, so you can still stand up/move/aim and get the bonus here
I guess it is hard to get rid of Fast Shot legacy; The skill is definitely problematic then.
Maybe something to do with getting some shooting bonuses when beginning the activation within 1" of cover between you and the target? Like a free Aim to represent the fighter leaning onto the cover and using it to stabilize aim quickly.
Edit: probably needs to require being Active to prevent fighters from cheesing with Aim(Free)+Shoot+Take Cover into Stand Up+Aim(Free)+Shoot
 
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