N18 Rain of Blades Tactics card and Pinned fighters

[Quinton]

Hi All,

Long time lurker but first time poster.

Our group ran into a rules disagreement tonight that we could not resolve through debate and had to be rolled off.

An Escher player had a Death Maiden who was pinned prior to their activation, they activated her and wanted to play the Rain of Blades tactics card.

The two sides were obviously;

1) You can play it despite being pinned (and even despite any status effect that would prevent you from charging including Blaze and Serious Injury) since the card only requires you to activate the model and if there were restrictions they would be printed on the card. You play it and the model immediately stands up and gets the free charge.

2) You cannot play it because the model is unable to perform the charge action because they are Prone and Pinned. The only actions they can play in this state are Stand Up, Crawl, Blind Fire and Reload.

I have put this as a poll but feel free to put up reasoning or rationale.

Cheers

 

[Aulenback]

Play this gang tactic when activating a fighter. The fighter can immediately make a Charge (Double) action. This charge is a free action and does not count against their normal allotment of actions this activation.

The wording on the tactics card makes Charge (Double) a Free action, as long as you do it at the start of the Activation. Nothing on it suggests "despite other conditions."

If Engaged, it doesn't look like it allows you to charge out of Engagement,; if Seriously Injured, it doesn't look as though it allows you to Charge; if Webbed, it doesn't look as though it allows you to Charge; and if Prone and Pinned, it doesn't look as though it allows you to Charge (without having already stood up, perhaps through Spring Up, which also triggers when activating).

Prone and Pinned limits your actions available. Prone and Webbed limits your actions available. Prone and Seriously Injured limits your actions available. Standing and Engaged limits your actions available. The argument that the card allows the Charge regardless status would mean that a Seriously Injured fighter could use it to Charge as well. That comparison may help with folks who think it should be allowed. If it doesn't, and they feel it allows the Action to be taken regardless fighter status, there is a larger discussion about Actions and Status that your table will want to hash out, not specific to this card.

 

[HugeSamples]

I'd say they would need to be able to perform the charge action in order to be able to use the ability of the card. i.e. be standing and active.

While you can play the card (that condition is met), you may or may not be able to do the ability on the card (the conditions for that action are not met).

It's pretty clear that charging isn't on your list of options when prone and pinned. While you are granted a free charge action, your current conditions make it unable for you to do so.

since the card only requires you to activate the model and if there were restrictions they would be printed on the card.

I wouldn't give GW this much credit...

 

[HugeSamples]

I guess in that regard I'm in favor of option 3: you can play the card, but you can't use it's ability

 

[Vonvilkee]

I guess in that regard I'm in favor of option 3: you can play the card, but you can't use it's ability

I'd be in favor of letting the card be played, charge is now free, bank that for the activation. So if and when that model goes to charge they get it for free.

Typing that there are a slew of issues there too. Now a model could move x2 then charge, aim shoot then charge... but it is a card and overseer let's you do similar with a group activation.

Long story short just cuz the action is free doesn't mean you can do it.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Typing that there are a slew of issues there too. Now a model could move x2 then charge, aim shoot then charge... but it is a card and overseer let's you do similar with a group activation.

Without timing, that would indeed be intentional to allow other actions first. It is precisely worded to avoid this, which seems intentional and weird. Instead of allowing to pay action to stand up from pinned, then charge free, it allows to charge free, then move/shoot/whatever, which may be more deadly. So you're not getting a charge where you normally couldn't, you're getting bonus actions after a charge if you could charge in the first place...

 

[Aulenback]

Question: Charge is (Double), not (Basic). As such, if at the end of this Charge (Free) Action, would you be able - if no longer Engaged thanks to a successful Fight and maybe Coup de Grace - to then use your two Actions for a Charge (Double)?

 

[Vonvilkee]

Another conundrum! The "free" fight is still (basic), correct?

Course that might be why it is called rain of blows cuz you need that skill to really capitalize on it?

 

[TopsyKretts]

The Free/Simple/Basic/Double doesn't cover repeatability. Look, one part signify how many actions spent (0/1/1/2). The other part (Simple/Basic) signify repeatability. In order to cover all cases, we'd need another Double (Simply Double?) and another Free (Simply Free)... Without that, I'd infer that all actions are by default not repeatable, unless originally Simple.

• Free: 0 action (repeatable?)
• Simple: 1 action (repeatable)
• Basic: 1 action (not repeatable)
• Double: 2 actions (repeatable?)

Kill Team solves this much better: No actions are repeatable

 

[Vonvilkee]

Kill Team solves this much better: No actions are repeatable

But reloading a bolter takes time! Lol eyes his quick hands orlock champ who hangs out by a munitioneer, decently dependable shooter.

 

[Scophthalmus]

The Free/Simple/Basic/Double doesn't cover repeatability. Look, one part signify how many actions spent (0/1/1/2). The other part (Simple/Basic) signify repeatability. In order to cover all cases, we'd need another Double (Simply Double?) and another Free (Simply Free)... Without that, I'd infer that all actions are by default not repeatable, unless originally Simple.

• Free: 0 action (repeatable?)
• Simple: 1 action (repeatable)
• Basic: 1 action (not repeatable)
• Double: 2 actions (repeatable?)

Kill Team solves this much better: No actions are repeatable

At least Free was defined in the N23 rulebook (p. 102):

FREE ACTIONS
Performing a Free action does not count as using one of your actions. Each Free action can only be performed once per activation. A model may not perform a Free action with the same name as a Basic action that they have performed this activation and vice versa.

 

[Aulenback]

The fighter moves as if making a Move (Simple) action, but adds D3" to the distance they can move. A charging fighter can move to within 1" of one or more enemy fighters that are Standing and either Active or Engaged, or that are Prone and either Pinned or Seriously Injured, but if they do move to within 1" they must have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact with at least one enemy fighter. If they do not have sufficient movement to get into base to base contact, they must stop 1" away. If they are Standing and Engaged at the end of this move, they must immediately make a free Fight (Basic) action. If they are Standingand Engaged with a Prone and Pinned fighter at the end of this move, that fighterchanges their status to Standing and Active

So where the movement is AS IF MAKING a Move action, the Fighting is MAKING a mandatory free Fight (Basic) action. So it is not possible to charge twice in the same activation through this tactics card, because that would be performing two free Fight (Basic) actions as a result. Not because of limits on doing two (Double) actions, or any such. Just because of (Basic). Sorted.

 

[HugeSamples]

FREE ACTIONS
Performing a Free action does not count as using one of your actions. Each Free action can only be performed once per activation. A model may not perform a Free action with the same name as a Basic action that they have performed this activation and vice versa.

Not sure I would have noticed this/thought to look. Good to know.

 

[TopsyKretts]

At least Free was defined in the N23 rulebook (p. 102):

FREE ACTIONS
Performing a Free action does not count as using one of your actions. Each Free action can only be performed once per activation. A model may not perform a Free action with the same name as a Basic action that they have performed this activation and vice versa.

Poorly! Can you make a Free action with the same name as a Double action that is already made this activation? Only Basic is specified.

 

[Aulenback]

Oh, it is poorly defined, yes. Or at least not as explicitly as could be.
It does explicitly deny replicating a (Basic) Action. It does not say anything about (Double) Actions, so a (Free) Action can then duplicate a (Double) action. Since they have called out ONE type of Action (Basic) as not being able to be repeated whether (Free) or otherwise, but not called out (Simple) or (Double) actions the same way, those can be solidly inferred to be able to be repeated.

Charge (Double) is the odd one out, and it cannot be done twice, RAW, not because it is a (Double) action, but because that (Double) Action includes having to also do a (Free)(Basic) Action, and the (Basic) Action, despite being (Free), cannot be duplicated during the same Activation by another Fight Action.

[And just to be sure, are there any Skills in Necromunda at present that can launch a fighter from the end of one Fight (Basic) Action (part of a charge or otherwise) and into a second Engagement? I didn't see any Savagery skills that can do so, which is where I would most expect one.]

 

[HugeSamples]

Man, GW really made things overly complex here...

 

[Vonvilkee]

[And just to be sure, are there any Skills in Necromunda at present that can launch a fighter from the end of one Fight (Basic) Action (part of a charge or otherwise) and into a second Engagement? I didn't see any Savagery skills that can do so, which is where I would most expect one.]

Funny enough yes! Well kinda, there is a combat skill "rain of blows" changes fight (basic) to fight (simple).

Seems like this card was designed to make this skill useful and the names are even super close!

 

[Beebopalulla]

I would say no because if i recall correctly there is card in hall of the ancestors that allows you to strike after being out of action but before it takes effect. The wording as I understand it in the case of the Escher card mean that you need to be able to act.