Rapid fire in melee

[el_ojo_y_la_sombra]

I crossed this thread in Necromunda reddit where they discuss about using rapid fire pistols in melee
https://www.reddit.com/r/necromunda/comments/7ow6t4/rapid_fire_pistols_on_melee/
https://www.reddit.com/r/necromunda/comments/7ow6t4/rapid_fire_pistols_on_melee/

Using this rule in CC is so strange that I was sure it wasnt possible, but checking the rulebook I do not see how to counter their logic.
Are they wrong? Could be intentional to use it in CC? other messy rule of this edition?

 

[FerociousBeast]

I don't see any other interpretation... Absent a rule saying otherwise (which I don't see), autopistols fire as rapid fire (1) whether at range or in melee.

 

[KopMcGinty]

I don't see any other interpretation... Absent a rule saying otherwise (which I don't see), autopistols fire as rapid fire (1) whether at range or in melee.

This really isn't the rulebook to rely on rules as written.

I love the new version of the games mechanics but the rulebook is a mess in countless ways.

So many wrinkles to iron out before we start our campaign. As arbitrator I'm probably going to have to pre-emptive house rule loads of FAQ type stuff unless a proper one comes along..

That said, myself i don't actually mind the rapid fire in CC though it isn't how I've played it so far. I've not got into a proper campaign yet (next month.. can't wait!) Bit it's another thing to decide on before hand.

 

[Thorgor]

It's yet another messy rule.

What we do know from the rules is that:

• the Firepower die is rolled when using a pistol in Melee (Underhive p57)
• using a Pistol in Melee counts as "firing" it (again, Underhive p57)
• Rapid Fire triggers "when firing" with the weapon (GW p39)

This suggests that Rapid Fire does work in Melee.
But it's doubtful those rules were written with this in mind (the firepower die is rolled in Melee so that the weapon can jam. No mention is made of Rapid Fire here, while it's mentionned pretty much everywhere else where the Firepower die is (Stray shots rules for instance)).

Rapid Fire also allows the attacker to hit other enemies in addition to the original target (if there are any within 3" and in LoS), which feels off for a CC attack. It becomes even stranger when you consider the additional requirement (those extra targets mustn't be harder to hit than the original): are you supposed to compare the fighter's WS to their modified-per-cover BS? Or is spreading those bullets simply not allowed (since you cannot shoot at those secondary targets when you are Engaged, they are "harder" to hit than the original)? And what if the Autopistol fighter is Engaged with multiple opponents (and both are in LoS)?

 

[Azzabat]

Regardless of the intention of the rules writers, I’m not allowing Rapid Fire to be used in CQC when I run our campaign. I can see every single person being armed with a pistol (or 2 pistols), and I’ve got enough Rules Mess to sort out already.

Sure you can Blaze away with a pistol at range, but if you’ve ever been involved in CQC the last thing you’re trying to do is shoot your opponent multiple times. You’ll use your precious rifle (or Pistol) like a club even when you have a chance to shoot. Trust me.

 

[Thorgor]

Sure you can Blaze away with a pistol at range, but if you’ve ever been involved in CQC the last thing you’re trying to do is shoot your opponent multiple times. You’ll use your precious rifle (or Pistol) like a club even when you have a chance to shoot. Trust me.

Well, this isn't real life. If using Pistol in CC was supposed to represent pistol-whipping, then there would be no reason to use the pistol's S or to roll the Firepower die. It's pretty clear that the pistol is being fired point blank (once, and the subsequent Unarmed attacks do represent pistol-whipping.)
And if an autopistol is fired point blank, then I don't see why it should suddenly switch from full auto to semi-auto.
What is harder to swallow imo is the ability to hit other guys 3" away from the Melee fight.

Why are people so afraid of Rapid Fire anyway? It's just an (average) 1.7 hit multiplicator (assuming the weapon hits in the first place) on a S3 weapon. I'm sure it's good, but is it that broken?

 

[Blood Donor]

I always found in the previous editions that it was an attempt to minimize the mess of it all and make it fairly straightforward. No ammo rolls, no option to use sustained fire or use that Plasma Pistol on high power mode. I feel like the mentality going in to how all the dice rolling works within the narrative framing of Necromunda (or other tabletop games) is at the end, when all the results are done and your character got three hits against the opponent, that it was this drawn out and cinematic swashbuckling affair where they bit thumbs and insulted mothers, got some good swings in, and that the final blows sometimes included pistol shots. Trying to reperesent each round of combat as a single swing of the sword, a single well timed pistol shot to the guts, it makes the whole game seem ultra silly.

 

[Stoof]

I don't really agree that firing a rapid fire pistol in close combat is a problem.

If the pistol has rapid fire, we've been using them as rapid fire even in close combat since we started playing N17. The shots have only been allocated against one engaged opponent though - we didn't cosider being able to spread them to multiple targets.

It's useful enough, but due to the nature of the rapid fire dice it's not someting you can rely on and it's not game-breaking.

 

[pr01e]

An escher juve charged down a long hallway into a hail of heavy stubber fire erupting from a champion posted up behind a barricade, barely avoiding the incoming shells.

With a flash of light she lept into the barricade and slashed and blasted over the top of it with her stiletto knife and autopistol

Needing a 5+ on the charge roll and a 6 to hit on this suicidal attack (5+ -1 for attacking over a barricade), she rolled a 6 to charge, then a 6 on the autopistol die along with the dreaded 3 ammos and blasted the champion in the face, giving him a quick trip to the ER and a shiny new metal jaw. Witnessing this horrific display, the two nearby Cawdor broke their (rather high) resolve and sent them running for cover.

(awesome real life example from my last game of rapid fire in melee)

 

[Kairae]

Escher Juves are 4+ WS, so she should have hit on a 5+. But otherwise, cool story.

The only reason I dislike RF in Melee is it makes the Autogun/Lasgun + 2 x Autopistol build ubiquitous.

You can probably mitigate that by making Twin Guns Blazing only legal on models not armed with a Basic/Special or Heavy Weapon.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Escher Juves are 4+ WS, so she should have hit on a 5+. But otherwise, cool story.

The only reason I dislike RF in Melee is it makes the Autogun/Lasgun + 2 x Autopistol build ubiquitous.

You can probably mitigate that by making Twin Guns Blazing only legal on models not armed with a Basic/Special or Heavy Weapon.

Or maybe make twin guns blazing -2 in long range and -1 in short. Makes Laspistols a bit better for this kind of thing.

 

[Kairae]

Or maybe make twin guns blazing -2 in long range and -1 in short. Makes Laspistols a bit better for this kind of thing.

I think that just punishes gunfighter builds without Shooting as a Primary skill.

I have no issue with 2 x Pistol + CCW being a strong build. I just think Basic/Special + 2 x Pistol is getting the best of all possible worlds with no real downside (hell, it's even cheaper than Basic/Special + Pistol + CCW most of the time): it so clearly the best build on 'generic' Gangers that doing anything else is deliberately choosing a sub-optimal build.

 

[Cpt. Boriel]

After some quick mathhammer I don’t really see a problem with autopistols RFing in CC. It’s better than a knife or sword vs T3 and worse than a sword vs T4 (on average, a lucky roll is stronger). Knives are superior on average with back stab, while swords grant parry. The only issue is that autopistols should probably cost 15 points due to their utility

 

[Kairae]

What armour were you assuming? The AP-1 is going to have more significant an effect vs Flak than Mesh because it completely elminates the risk of a Save.

I think Backstab is hard to model because the likelihood of getting it off changes so much depending on the meta; you're better off comparing it to a Flail and Sword and ignore Parry/Entangle. Without Parry/Entangle Flails/Swords would be worth ~10pts.

Honeslty, I'm leaning to all Basic Ranged Weapons are undercosted by 5pts.

 

[Cpt. Boriel]

I was assuming flak for T3 and furnace for T4. haven't had the pleasure of facing a legacy gang yet.

I'm thinking that backstab is the knife upgrade and its situational to keep it cheaper.

I think youre right that basic ranged guns are too cheap, but i think its actually intentional to make gangers buy them and make leaders/champions shine in the game in CC

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Guns are cheap because Necromunda mass produces them. A good blade is expensive because it is a specialty item. At least that's my rationalization...

It still bothers me that 5 out of 6 gangs have better armor than Imperial Guard though...

 

[Commissariat]

Regardless of the intention of the rules writers, I’m not allowing Rapid Fire to be used in CQC when I run our campaign. I can see every single person being armed with a pistol (or 2 pistols), and I’ve got enough Rules Mess to sort out already.

Sure you can Blaze away with a pistol at range, but if you’ve ever been involved in CQC the last thing you’re trying to do is shoot your opponent multiple times. You’ll use your precious rifle (or Pistol) like a club even when you have a chance to shoot. Trust me.

So far in the TTS campaign, we have been using Rapid-Fire in melee. It has not necessarily been a big deal and has not yet accounted for a kill, especially with parry negating any number of rapid-fire results. Additionally, due to the autopistol being the only rapid fire pistol at the moment, it hasn't been an issue whatsoever besides making laspistols less valuable.

In regards to Basic+2 Pistols or Basic+Pistol/Melee Weapon:
I, personally, purchase 1 basic 1 pistol 1 melee weapon. Clubs are 5 creds and are damage 2, which is pretty decent, and swords are what you put on a melee fighter.

Almost all firearms are under-costed though.

All this is spoken from a perspective that allows equipment swapping.