N18 Rapid fire rad phage

[TamerOz]

This one has us divided as a group atm. One gang got a territory that allows rad phage on rapid fire weapons.

We thought we agreed on the RAW until he rolled 3 bullet holes on the firepower dice. Bookromunda and Necrodamus rad phage rules state "After being hit, roll 4+ to inflict an additional flesh wound".

Rapid fire states "A successful hit scores a number of hits equal to the number of bullet holes on the firepower dice".

Does this mean he rolls for rad phage on each of the 3 rapid fire hits, potentially dealing 3 flesh wounds with one shot?

 

[TopsyKretts]

Dealing 3 flesh wounds is ridiculously OP so would be bad balance for the game. I can add a note to both Bookromunda and Necrodamus about this in the next version.

 

[TamerOz]

That's our initial reaction too, however wondering about rules as written. Is there anything in the official/house books that clarifies this?

 

[TopsyKretts]

I think so but not able to verify at the moment. Possibly FAQ'ed.

 

[BranBuccarcher]

If it does cause 1 roll per bullet hole then it does make the rad beamer a serious weapon after all.

 

[Psyan]

This shouldn't be a new issue... Rad Ammo has been available for Autoguns and Auto Pistols for awhile now.

I've always rolled for Rad-Phage at the same time as I've rolled to hit and ammo/RF dice. If I miss, I simply disregard the Rad-Phage roll. I've never played it where I made a Rad-Phage roll for every RF shot... that would be pretty strong.

 

[TamerOz]

One of the players got the wording from the official books (not sure which one) and it reads:
"Rad-Phage: After fully resolving any successful hits a fighter suffers from a weapon with this Trait, roll an additional D6. If the roll is a 4 or higher, the fighter will suffer an additional Flesh Wound."

I think that is clearer than the current Bookromunda/Necrodamus wording. Although I can see the intent is to say after all hits have been resolved, "any successful hits" is less ambiguous than "after being hit".

There is also the matter which has been raised on yaktribe before around Rapid Fire spread to different targets. As a group we've agreed that you would still roll for Rad-Phage after any successful hits on subsequent targets. I.e. Rapid Fire with 2 bullet holes spread across two different fighters would cause a Rad-Phage roll for each.

 

[TopsyKretts]

This shouldn't be a new issue... Rad Ammo has been available for Autoguns and Auto Pistols for awhile now.

I've always rolled for Rad-Phage at the same time as I've rolled to hit and ammo/RF dice. If I miss, I simply disregard the Rad-Phage roll. I've never played it where I made a Rad-Phage roll for every RF shot... that would be pretty strong.

This is an old topic yes and has been discussed:

N18 - Rad Ammo and Rapid-fire?

For those who aren't aware, the new Book of Peril adds some new ammo options, one of which is rad ammunition for autoguns, which have the rad-phage rule just like the van saar rad-cannon. I'm confused how it interacts with the rapid-fire rule. Would you only make one rad-phage test for the...

yaktribe.games

 

[bcurd85]

logically i think of it like poison, say you got hit with a poisoned dart, you could get hit by several darts but you still only poisoned the once, i.e. move from not poisoned to poisoned, you are under the status of 'poisoned' singular.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Same with blaze. Some traits simply doesn't stack.

 

[Vonvilkee]

But rad-phage does something that can stack. You don't gain some status called irradiated, you take a flesh wound. This would not preclude you from suffering further flesh wounds even from the same effect.

I'm squarely in the camp of all the hits get the roll. If you are gonna let hits spread out all trigger I don't see a compelling reason for them to mysteriously go away on a single fighter.

It is a 50/50 and by most accounts autoguns are worse than lasguns. On paper it can look strong however the odds of it happening and mattering are low.

 

[Psyan]

He has a point. You can stack multiple flesh wounds.
My concern here would be balance. Just rolling once for Rad-Phage isn't particularly powerful, but on an RF weapon, you could potentially take a fighter out just with flesh wounds. Is that too much?

 

[Vonvilkee]

Autoguns are not that accurate, bolters are still better.
I'd still think lasguns with hotshots would be taken over this interpretation.
Yeah it is strong but in a very down and dirty way. Very under hive

 

[TopsyKretts]

And bolter with rad phage is stronger still. What is really strong is a stig shambler with twin-linked heavy stubber turret with Rapid Fire (3). If geting rad, potentially 9 fleshwounds before rolling any injury dice.

 

[Jon Reinhardt]

I had a orlock champeon whit bullet lord lucky and a heavy stubber whit rad phage. It was awsome but can ony be done once. It does cost a bit and compared to some of the ofter special abilitys its not that good. Becase you can only do it once. Compared to GSC familiars and esher death maidens.

 

[Vonvilkee]

For some reason I was stuck on rad rounds not a territory adding rad phage...

Honestly though if a bolter hits a fighter three times I think rad phage is the least of their worries!

 

[Mr. M]

Doesn't the territory that allows adding rad phage also cause the weapon to be unstable? If so, that's a really bad down-side; so the related up-side should be decently powerful.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Work out the odds of actually getting three flesh wound. You need to hit the target, then roll a 1/6 on the ammo dice to get the three shots then roll a 4+ to inflict a flesh wound three times.
It actually occuring to that degree is rare.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Much easier with other weapons that have plus modifier to hit and 2 or 3 ammo dice to get 3-9 shots.

 

[JawRippa]

Work out the odds of actually getting three flesh wound. You need to hit the target, then roll a 1/6 on the ammo dice to get the three shots then roll a 4+ to inflict a flesh wound three times.
It actually occuring to that degree is rare.

First of all, low probability of a highroll does not cancel out the fact that you can highroll and completely remove a model no matter the save or remaining wounds (or completely cripple that model).
Secondly, when using rad-phage you mostly care about getting the effect at least once, which actually has a very good propability, 65% of that happenning.
The link is anydice script I've done for calculating probability of wounding by rapid fire weaponry, in this case its the same probability as getting at least 1 wound of no save T3 target by S3 rapid fire. (Be warned if you decude to use the script for other purposes though, I've also included traits like shock and shred and these are not working correctly currently.)

So no, rad-phage per every hit would be ABSOLUTE BONKERS. GW clearly wrote it so it triggers at the end of attack sequence and only once, no matter how many times you hit.