N18 Rapid Fire Rules

[Ravensmane]

Can anyone clarify if I have these rules right?

Weapons with Sidearm and Rapid Fire in close combat...

1) Using the ammo dice would you get as many hits as bullets on the dice (close combat)?
2) If you had more than one bullet, would you be able to declare extra hits on other models also engaged in close combat?
3) If you miss with a rapid fire weapon and say got three shots on the ammo dice would you use the three shots as strayed shots and then would it go all onto the first target or would you split them up? (both close combat and ranged attacks)

I do think that number 3) will end up as a house rule!!

Cheers in advance

 

[Sarkazym]

Weapons with Sidearm and Rapid Fire in close combat...
1) Using the ammo dice would you get as many hits as bullets on the dice (close combat)?

- Yes, you get that many hits if rolled. Ammo Checks also needed if rolled

2) If you had more than one bullet, would you be able to declare extra hits on other models also engaged in close combat?

- I can see the argument for it, but would probably say no. I COULD be completely wrong on this, but I haven't charged multiple models with my Autopistols. I believe the first restriction would be in combat with the attacking model. You couldn't extend the extra hits to models behind the target despite being in range of the weapon. Unlike shooting, you assign your attacks in combat before rolling. If it was allowed, then all of the Rapid Fire hit weapons would be directed at the first model, getting around the -1 modifier for attacking multiple targets, then let the excess take out the next guy without any attacks assigned to it.

3) If you miss with a rapid fire weapon and say got three shots on the ammo dice would you use the three shots as strayed shots and then would it go all onto the first target or would you split them up? (both close combat and ranged attacks)

- I don't think this one will fly. We used to pull this stunt in first edition where we'd try to shoot our own guys in Combat because the stray shots had a better chance of hitting models in Combat than trying to actually shoot them. In this case, you're not applying the shooting modifiers or using BS in combat, so rules wise there aren't stray shots.

 

[Galtarr]

1) yes
2) No, purely as it's CC attack with WS and not a ranged attack. Unlikely to spray around at point blank range.
3) No but houserule away.

 

[Ravensmane]

Thanks guys, for the response



So questions, as an arbitrator for a campaign I like to have these rules to refer back to if asked and I can't find any in the rule book for point 2



I follow as it is written or in this case, as it is not written



My line of thinking goes...



Shoot with Rapid fire weapons, pick target, roll to hit and ammo dice



If more than one shot with a rapid fire weapon you can then declare the extra shots to eligible targets with certain criteria

Close combat, pick target, roll to hit and ammo dice

So the above sequence to hit is the same!

Rapid Fire rules key words

"When firing a rapid fire weapon"

And

"If a rapid fire weapons scores more than one hit, the hits can be split between multiple targets"

There isn't a definite word of shooting used

Close Combat rules

Pistols at Close Quarters

"Accuracy Modifiers do not apply"

Again no mention of Rapid Fire

Also in Close combat rules

"Declare Targets, eligible targets that are engage and and in the vision arc"

So you can pick more than one target at the start of Close combat

Also with stray shots saying that if you miss you may hit someone else who is engaged

Is there a rule that I am missing?

I find the structure of the new rule BOOKS a little frustrating

 

[Sarkazym]

Is there a rule that I am missing?

You're not missing any rules, you're just looking for a hole that isn't there. I found out real fast that it helps to STOP thinking of Sidearms as a Ranged Weapon in Melee, but START treating them as a melee weapon with that profile. When you apply the steps, you'll find a hole is created when you try to apply Rapid Fire as a shooting attack on a Melee weapon. From there it's not hard to decide what they might actually mean.

Let's look at shooting first:
Shooting
1. Assess Target Priority
2. Declare Shot
3. Measure Range
4. Make the Hit Roll
5. Resolve Hits

1 - This is the biggest difference. Normally, a figher going through all the steps, narrows the shot down to a Single Target.
2,3 - Only the weapon you've selected applies here, pretty straightforward.
4 - There are modifiers at this step, both general and Weapon Profiles, that do not apply in Combat
5 - THIS is where all the additional rules you mentioned come into play. Rapid Fire being the most common one where you score a number of hits based on the Ammo Dice. It's important to note that you don't roll the Ammo die separately THEN roll that number of dice to try and score hits. Stray Shots are only added to the end of the shooting attacks to cover what happens when you miss. There is really only 1 possible outcome should this even come up.

Find your Eligible Target, Roll your single attack, Resolve the SINGLE hit, adjust the result by Rapid Fire/Stray Shots/etc.

Close Combat
1. Turn to Face
2. Choose Weapons
3. Determine Attack Dice
4. Declare Targets
5. Make Hit Roll(s)
6. Resolve Hits
7. Reaction Attacks
8. Consolidate/Coup de Gras

1 - Instead of checking to see if there are eligible targets, you have the opportunity to create an eligible target.
2 - Unlike shooting, you get to pick up to 2 weapons to use. There is a 3rd profile for Unarmed attacks that might come into play here when using Pistols.
3 - Determine attack dice. You're effectively creating a pool of dice to assign. Each Pistol can only have 1 if you pick two of them as your weapons. This is where the 3rd profile kicks in allow you to assign the additional attacks to Pistol whip your target instead of pulling the trigger.
4 - In combat, you're welcome to declare multiple targets before you assign any dice. Shooting, you've already narrowed down to one target before you reach this step. Unlike shooting, all targets must be within 1" without any special rules. You also need a special rule to target (not HIT), multiple targets.
5 - Like shooting, there are still modifiers to hit. They're just not accuracy based. Assists/Interference are the normal modifiers here, it's got nothing to do with the weapons being used.
6 - Both the Shooting and Combat kick over to Resolve hits (p124) step. The difference is that after Combat, there are 2 additional steps to address what happens when you miss which is needed in more detail because of all the different possible outcomes. They needed to setup a system to instruct players on what to do. I think you'll find that most players will agree that 'Rapid Fire' kicks in at this same step when it comes up. Stray Shots does not. It's not a shooting attack.

Your dispute lies here. When using a Sidearm in a 1v1 fight, all of the attacks are assigned to the one fighter. Rapid Fire will generate X hits on that model. By the strictest application of the rules, the only other models that would be eligible for the hits are those:
A) Within 3"
* It feels like you're trying to use this to hit models outside of the Combat because they are within 3". In both cases (in/out) you're attempting to convince us to use those extra hits against models AFTER attacks have been assigned.
B) Within Range
* Are you trying to apply the range of the weapon to a melee attack or limit all ranges to 1" for being in Combat?
c) Within Line of Sight
* In Combat, this is probably going to be limited to the front Arc, which on a smaller model will usually be two.
I don't believe you're using this to hit models out of LoS, but I'm simply covering all the bases.

With one Rapid Fire Sidearm, you MIGHT see the problem with your statement in game. Doing it your way would allow a Rapid Fire Sidearm to be used IN combat to take someone who wasn't in the Combat. When you run dual Rapid Fire Sidearm you will quickly see how it becomes an issue. I'd take 2 RF shots in CC with no penalties and still benefit from hitting multiple models instead of risking missed shots on both models WITH modifiers.

That's where Common Sense kicks in and counters your position. Especially since the game is setup to Retreat(B) and then Shoot(B) to avoid any exploit of the rule. If you couldn't do that, you might have more of an argument from a balance perspective. I also believe that if Rapid Fire Sidearms did function that way, we'd see MORE of them in games, and Autopistols would suddenly become the Weapon of choice.

As of right now, I only know of Autopistols that have both the Rapid Fire and Sidearm trait. So by all means house rule it and let us know how it goes. I think you'll find that Autopistols would quickly become the best option for Close Combat oriented models like Corpse Grinders, especially since they would abuse the opportunity to take out models that they aren't assaulting. Worse if those models have a higher WS than BS and suddenly shoot better in combat to hit models out of combat.

 

[Ravensmane]

ou're not missing any rules, you're just looking for a hole that isn't there. I found out real fast that it helps to STOP thinking of Sidearms as a Ranged Weapon in Melee, but START treating them as a melee weapon with that profile. When you apply the steps, you'll find a hole is created when you try to apply Rapid Fire as a shooting attack on a Melee weapon. From there it's not hard to decide what they might actually mean.

Let's look at shooting first:
Shooting
1. Assess Target Priority
2. Declare Shot
3. Measure Range
4. Make the Hit Roll
5. Resolve Hits

1 - This is the biggest difference. Normally, a figher going through all the steps, narrows the shot down to a Single Target.
2,3 - Only the weapon you've selected applies here, pretty straightforward.
4 - There are modifiers at this step, both general and Weapon Profiles, that do not apply in Combat
5 - THIS is where all the additional rules you mentioned come into play. Rapid Fire being the most common one where you score a number of hits based on the Ammo Dice. It's important to note that you don't roll the Ammo die separately THEN roll that number of dice to try and score hits. Stray Shots are only added to the end of the shooting attacks to cover what happens when you miss. There is really only 1 possible outcome should this even come up.

Find your Eligible Target, Roll your single attack, Resolve the SINGLE hit, adjust the result by Rapid Fire/Stray Shots/etc.

Close Combat
1. Turn to Face
2. Choose Weapons
3. Determine Attack Dice
4. Declare Targets
5. Make Hit Roll(s)
6. Resolve Hits
7. Reaction Attacks
8. Consolidate/Coup de Gras

1 - Instead of checking to see if there are eligible targets, you have the opportunity to create an eligible target.
2 - Unlike shooting, you get to pick up to 2 weapons to use. There is a 3rd profile for Unarmed attacks that might come into play here when using Pistols.
3 - Determine attack dice. You're effectively creating a pool of dice to assign. Each Pistol can only have 1 if you pick two of them as your weapons. This is where the 3rd profile kicks in allow you to assign the additional attacks to Pistol whip your target instead of pulling the trigger.
4 - In combat, you're welcome to declare multiple targets before you assign any dice. Shooting, you've already narrowed down to one target before you reach this step. Unlike shooting, all targets must be within 1" without any special rules. You also need a special rule to target (not HIT), multiple targets.
5 - Like shooting, there are still modifiers to hit. They're just not accuracy based. Assists/Interference are the normal modifiers here, it's got nothing to do with the weapons being used.
6 - Both the Shooting and Combat kick over to Resolve hits (p124) step. The difference is that after Combat, there are 2 additional steps to address what happens when you miss which is needed in more detail because of all the different possible outcomes. They needed to setup a system to instruct players on what to do. I think you'll find that most players will agree that 'Rapid Fire' kicks in at this same step when it comes up. Stray Shots does not. It's not a shooting attack.

Your dispute lies here. When using a Sidearm in a 1v1 fight, all of the attacks are assigned to the one fighter. Rapid Fire will generate X hits on that model. By the strictest application of the rules, the only other models that would be eligible for the hits are those:
A) Within 3"
* It feels like you're trying to use this to hit models outside of the Combat because they are within 3". In both cases (in/out) you're attempting to convince us to use those extra hits against models AFTER attacks have been assigned.
B) Within Range
* Are you trying to apply the range of the weapon to a melee attack or limit all ranges to 1" for being in Combat?
c) Within Line of Sight
* In Combat, this is probably going to be limited to the front Arc, which on a smaller model will usually be two.
I don't believe you're using this to hit models out of LoS, but I'm simply covering all the bases.

With one Rapid Fire Sidearm, you MIGHT see the problem with your statement in game. Doing it your way would allow a Rapid Fire Sidearm to be used IN combat to take someone who wasn't in the Combat. When you run dual Rapid Fire Sidearm you will quickly see how it becomes an issue. I'd take 2 RF shots in CC with no penalties and still benefit from hitting multiple models instead of risking missed shots on both models WITH modifiers.

That's where Common Sense kicks in and counters your position. Especially since the game is setup to Retreat(B) and then Shoot(B) to avoid any exploit of the rule. If you couldn't do that, you might have more of an argument from a balance perspective. I also believe that if Rapid Fire Sidearms did function that way, we'd see MORE of them in games, and Autopistols would suddenly become the Weapon of choice.

As of right now, I only know of Autopistols that have both the Rapid Fire and Sidearm trait. So by all means house rule it and let us know how it goes. I think you'll find that Autopistols would quickly become the best option for Close Combat oriented models like Corpse Grinders, especially since they would abuse the opportunity to take out models that they aren't assaulting. Worse if those models have a higher WS than BS and suddenly shoot better in combat to hit models out

First off thank you for the time it took you to reply to this, pretty awesome,

From my point of view, I am only trying to find the rule to answer the question, can you use Rapid Fire in close combat, to which I must say the answer is feeling more like yes even more so after reading the above...

Reading through these are the things that make me lean towards yes...

Close Combat P121 4. Declare Targets
When a fighter makes a close combat attack, it must be against an eligible target. An eligible target is an enemy model that is within the vision arc of the fighter and that the fighter is Engaging, If there is more than one eligible target, close combat attacks can be split between them as the player wishes.
(Close combat standard rule, can target more than one engaged eligible target)

Shooting P117 Stray Shots
If an attack with a ranged weapon misses, there is a chance that another fighter, friend or foe, that is Engaging the target will be hit, equally, there is a chance that any model, friend of foe, that is within 1" of the line along which the range between the attacker and the target was measured, will be hit.
(First part of stray shots refer to close combat, second to shooting)

Rapid Fire (X) P315
When firing with a rapid fire weapon, a successful hit roll scores a number of hits equal to the number of bullet holes on the firepower dice.
If a rapid fire weapon scores more than one hit, the hits can be split between multiple targets. The first must be allocated to the original target, but the remainder can be allocated to other models within 3" of the first and who are also within range and line of sight.
(think that you are engaged so range would turn into base contact)

Close Combat P121 Pistols at Close Quarters
If a fighter attacks with a weapon with the sidearm trait in close combat, accuracy modifiers do not apply.
(No mention of any other restrictions)

In your steps, Shooting vs Close Combat both would have weapon traits at the same time, the two extra steps in close combat happen if you miss/and or kill

If I was using a Needle Pistol, would I not be able to use the Toxin Trait? which is the same as not using the Rapid Fire Trait, if Rapid Fires rule was to re-roll failed to hit rolls, would it still be a cant use it in Close Combat

Your point is to stop looking at pistols as ranged attacks but rather melee weapons, I would argue that I would treat them as a sidearm!

If I was in a close combat fight with a sidearm I would fire that side arm (rapid fire rule, "when firing with a rapid fire weapon")

As a weapon that has rapid fire trait, say a burst shot or even full auto, I would pull the trigger at range and X amounts of shots would come out, using the same gun, if I am in close combat and pull the same trigger, why would only one bullet come out

The way I would play this

Declare Targets
Make Hit Rolls
If a Rapid Fire weapon gets more than one bullet on the firepower dice then those extra shots can be allocated to eligible targets (those engaged in close combat)
If the sidearm misses then a stray shot may hit a friend or foe also engaged in close combat, but only one shot (answered my origin question) as the Rapid fire rule states "a successful hit roll scores a number of hit equal to the number of bullet holes)
Carry on as normal

Problem with Necromunda there are too many grey areas and I can not find anything to say that you can't, and I feel that this is actually more down to induvial perspective and maybe a house rule

Again, I will add that I am only trying to clarify a rule and in no way do I feel that I am right and you are wrong, in fact, we have been playing this as you cant use Rapid Fire in Close Combat as I just assumed that you couldn't, its only that I was asked at Sundays game and want to find the rule!!!

 

[TopsyKretts]

Rapid Fire can be used in close combat yes, that has been clear since 2017. Normally all traits of the sidearm applies. However, Stray shots is for ranged attacks only, not close combat.

 

[Ravensmane]

Rapid Fire can be used in close combat yes, that has been clear since 2017. Normally all traits of the sidearm applies. However, Stray shots is for ranged attacks only, not close combat.

 

[Ravensmane]

Thanks for the reply, but, the stray shots rule clearly says engaged models?

 

[Sarkazym]

From my point of view, I am only trying to find the rule to answer the question, can you use Rapid Fire in close combat, to which I must say the answer is feeling more like yes even more so after reading the above...

I don't believe anyone is saying you can't. The conflict is applying Rapid Fire as a shooting attack in Melee beyond the assigned target.

Close Combat P121 4. Declare Targets
When a fighter makes a close combat attack, it must be against an eligible target. An eligible target is an enemy model that is within the vision arc of the fighter and that the fighter is Engaging, If there is more than one eligible target, close combat attacks can be split between them as the player wishes.
(Close combat standard rule, can target more than one engaged eligible target)

There is no issue at this stage either. Pick your targets before assigning attack dice. On normal man sized model bases this is most likely going to be capped at 2. At this stage you're assigning the single Sidearm attack die only. In the case of multiple targets, you can split the attack dice between them. Unless the 2nd model is engaged with another one of your models, you're going to take a -1 to hit even if you don't assign attack dice to them.

This situation is also pretty rare since most of the attacks would be on the charge. Most players wouldn't risk the -1 to hit for engaging multiple models, and charge to only engage the 1. This means you wouldn't be able to assign any attacks to the 2nd model as he's not engaged. If both models were engaged, there is no point in selecting the 2nd model if you aren't going to assign any attack dice to it. This is one point where you might have a case to direct any Rapid Fire hits onto the second model because you did select him as a target. Rapid fire simply doesn't come into effect at this stage.

Close Combat P121 Pistols at Close Quarters
If a fighter attacks with a weapon with the sidearm trait in close combat, accuracy modifiers do not apply.
(No mention of any other restrictions)

The restrictions are in place before you get to this stage. Once a model is Standing&Engaged, the action is limited to Fight(B). The Shoot(B) rules never come into play, including 'Stray Shots'. The fight rules allow a Sidearm to participate using the Close Combat rules. It's why you use the WS on a Sidearm and not BS. Nothing in the Combat rules allows a Sidearm to perform a Shoot(B) action in Combat.

Shooting P117 Stray Shots
If an attack with a ranged weapon misses, there is a chance that another fighter, friend or foe, that is Engaging the target will be hit, equally, there is a chance that any model, friend of foe, that is within 1" of the line along which the range between the attacker and the target was measured, will be hit.
(First part of stray shots refer to close combat, second to shooting)

First part of this restricts 'Stray Shots' to Shooting attacks. The example given governs how a model performing a Shoot(B) action works when firing into models that are Engaged. It doesn't apply to a model in Combat because they aren't performing a Shooot(B) action.

Rapid Fire (X) P315
When firing with a rapid fire weapon, a successful hit roll scores a number of hits equal to the number of bullet holes on the firepower dice.
If a rapid fire weapon scores more than one hit, the hits can be split between multiple targets. The first must be allocated to the original target, but the remainder can be allocated to other models within 3" of the first and who are also within range and line of sight.
(think that you are engaged so range would turn into base contact)

This is the last point of conflict for you because the rules don't tell us how to distribute the hits when used as Sidearm. 'Stray Shots' still don't affect anything at this stage. It's a 'Grey' area, but it's very unlikely that it's going to happen, because the only other eligible targets would also have to be engaged before any attacks are assigned.For the reasons I listed above, common sense tells us that the Rapid Fire hits should be directed at the same target as the assigned attack dice. In addition to that, a player could abuse the rule to resolve ALL the Rapid Fire hits against Model A. If that fails, then he could choose to split the Rapid Fire hits against the second model to try and kill the first one.

Regardless of how you interpret 'When firing' as a Shooting(B) or a Fight(B) attack, neither of them gets around the restriction that all attacks are limited to Engagment range, and the Rapid Fire rules don't grant any kind of extension to that range like other weapons do. You're not finding any restrictions the way you listed because you're not making the connection of which restrictions are in place.

-----

First off thank you for the time it took you to reply to this, pretty awesome,

This has been my experience with everyone here so far. I'm happy you appreciate my input as we try to resolve this.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Can anyone clarify if I have these rules right?

Weapons with Sidearm and Rapid Fire in close combat...

1) Using the ammo dice would you get as many hits as bullets on the dice (close combat)?
2) If you had more than one bullet, would you be able to declare extra hits on other models also engaged in close combat?
3) If you miss with a rapid fire weapon and say got three shots on the ammo dice would you use the three shots as strayed shots and then would it go all onto the first target or would you split them up? (both close combat and ranged attacks)

I do think that number 3) will end up as a house rule!!

Cheers in advance

1) depends on how you read the Side arm and rapid fire rules and how rigidly you apply the grammar and lexicon used.
The Side larm trait says the phrase "single attack" it does not say an attack but single. If it said one attack may made with a side arm then the full rapid fire rules apply but given that the wording is single as in singular which implies only a single shot.
The Rapid fire trait does not address this situation at all. Should you roll two or three that changes a single shot into more than a single one.
Does that change it from a single attack to multiple attacks and thus being ruled out by the wording of the Sidearm trait.
I suggest discussing either interpretation with your group and just deciding on a option and sticking with it.
By having the word Single in the Side arm trait description It implies, in English grammar, that it is a singular effect not a multiple one. If they used the word "an" instead of "single" then it would be more open and thus would be no grammatical distinction that leads to this ambiguity. If they used "an" instead they will also save printing a few letters.

Despite @TopsyKretts claim that Rapid fire can be used and it's clear since 2017, GW keep continually repeat to print that word "single" in every printing of the sidearm trait. It's still in all the printed books and nothing has been changed in any FAQ. Now I am pretty sure it's a case of embedded bad editing and it is intended that rapid fire applies but they keep repeating that word single over and over.

2) should you get the extra shots, see above yes
3) if you miss the hit roll you miss with all the shots. Stray shots only apply to Shoot actions not Fight ones anyway.

 

[Spenetrator]

1) depends on how you read the Side arm and rapid fire rules and how rigidly you apply the grammar and lexicon used.
The Side larm trait says the phrase "single attack"

Haven't got the rulebook to hand for references but the way to think of this is that a single attack (if you have 4 attacks only 1 can be with a sidearm) but that single attack (assuming it is successful) causes 1-3 hits from rapid fire.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Haven't got the rulebook to hand for references but the way to think of this is that a single attack (if you have 4 attacks only 1 can be with a sidearm) but that single attack (assuming it is successful) causes 1-3 hits from rapid fire.

It's the use of the word single instead of an. Single grammatically denotes a solo event while "an" denotes a more general one. If is said 'one attack may be with a side arm" then that denotes that the whole of the attack applies as normal with rapid fire but they just used the word single instead. Even if they just used the word "an" then that would imply it works with rapid fire but GW did not.
I believe that is what they meant but grammatically that is not what the wording of Sidearm actually says when they added the word "single".

They could clarify it by removing the word single and replacing it with an. Or adding a bit in Rapid Fire saying it applies to Shoot and Fight actions.

Then again it's unheard of for GW to have typos and poorly chosen words....
Add more sarcasm.

 

[Spenetrator]

It's the use of the word single instead of an. Single grammatically denotes a solo event while "an" denotes a more general one. If is said 'one attack may be with a side arm" then that denotes that the whole of the attack applies as normal with rapid fire but they just used the word single instead. Even if they just used the word "an" then that would imply it works with rapid fire but GW did not.
I believe that is what they meant but grammatically that is not what the wording of Sidearm actually says when they added the word "single".

We're drifting away from the OP, here, but I don't believe the wording of either 'an attack' or 'a single attack' has any bearing on the results of the rapid fire roll. Multiple *hits* (not attacks) are generated by results of the RF rolll, so there's no conflict.

An attack / a single attack from a sidearm allocated during the melee sequence requires a hit & RF roll which, (if successful) may cause multiple *hits*.

 

[pixel_SWORDS]

I think the confusion in the OP original point is coming from mixing Shooting and Close Combat rules because of the pistol. As others have said when a fighter uses a pistol with Sidearm in close combat it basically stops being a ranged weapon in regards to the rules. So any rules under Shooting don't apply to a pistol in Close Combat. I think that can be seen most clearly during a Versatile weapon attack (since you're not able to use your sidearm).

With that in mind I would say "No" to stray shots as that rule takes place during shooting and "Yes" to using RF to hit multiple targets in close combat as long as those targets are also Engaged with your fighter. Remember, like stated before, when making a close combat attack with a Sidearm weapon it's range is limited to E so you wouldn't be able to hit anyone within 3", just enemies within 3" that are Engaged with you in Melee combat and within your fighter's vision arc. Since each of the fighters in CC with you would be equally difficult to hit, nothing would make RF not trigger.

I would make a house ruling that the RF attack needs to be concluded before any other hits or dice pools are dealt with (just for various rules purposes like if one of the targets has Parry). Honestly you might just want to cement this as a house rule as well since many people will have different ideas for what the rule means from different iterations of the game. Necromunda rules being a fiddly mess, I've found that it's better for everyone to go into a game with the same understanding.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Thanks for the reply, but, the stray shots rule clearly says engaged models?

STRAY SHOTS
If an attack with a ranged weapon misses, there is a chance that another fighter, friend or foe, that is Engaging the target will be hit. Equally, there is a chance that any model, friend or foe, that is within 1" of the line along which the range between the attacker and the target was measured, will be hit.

If the attack misses, roll a D6 for each model that is at risk of being hit, starting with the model closest to the attacker. On the roll of 1, 2 or 3, that model is hit by the attack. On a 4, 5 or 6, the shot misses it – move on to the next model at risk of being hit.

If the attack would have caused more than one hit, follow this sequence for every hit.

It says "Engaging" for the purpose of shooting into close combat, not from close combat or out of close combat.

 

[Ravensmane]

It says "Engaging" for the purpose of shooting into close combat, not from close combat or out of close combat.

Now that makes sense and does clear this rule up that stray shots are only used in shooting...thank you

 

[Ravensmane]

I don't believe anyone is saying you can't. The conflict is applying Rapid Fire as a shooting attack in Melee beyond the assigned target.


There is no issue at this stage either. Pick your targets before assigning attack dice. On normal man sized model bases this is most likely going to be capped at 2. At this stage you're assigning the single Sidearm attack die only. In the case of multiple targets, you can split the attack dice between them. Unless the 2nd model is engaged with another one of your models, you're going to take a -1 to hit even if you don't assign attack dice to them.

This situation is also pretty rare since most of the attacks would be on the charge. Most players wouldn't risk the -1 to hit for engaging multiple models, and charge to only engage the 1. This means you wouldn't be able to assign any attacks to the 2nd model as he's not engaged. If both models were engaged, there is no point in selecting the 2nd model if you aren't going to assign any attack dice to it. This is one point where you might have a case to direct any Rapid Fire hits onto the second model because you did select him as a target. Rapid fire simply doesn't come into effect at this stage.

So in a few of our close combat fights, they have gone on past original charge and other fighters have joined in, so this has come up quite a lot that someone is engaged with more than one enemy fighter

The only way I would use the Rapid Fire rule would be directing extra shots to those models who are also engaged with the fighter with rapid fighter, within 3" (this would be rare to be outside 3" but I would make it clear just encase this ever did happen) and in their vision arc, it wouldn't outside of this

The restrictions are in place before you get to this stage. Once a model is Standing&Engaged, the action is limited to Fight(B). The Shoot(B) rules never come into play, including 'Stray Shots'. The fight rules allow a Sidearm to participate using the Close Combat rules. It's why you use the WS on a Sidearm and not BS. Nothing in the Combat rules allows a Sidearm to perform a Shoot(B) action in Combat.

Part of the fight action is using sidearms though, forget that side arms can also be ranged weapons they are also close combat weapons, sidearms have traits

First part of this restricts 'Stray Shots' to Shooting attacks. The example given governs how a model performing a Shoot(B) action works when firing into models that are Engaged. It doesn't apply to a model in Combat because they aren't performing a Shooot(B) action.

After the post from @TopsyKretts below, I agree that stray shots are only for shooting attacks

This is the last point of conflict for you because the rules don't tell us how to distribute the hits when used as Sidearm. 'Stray Shots' still don't affect anything at this stage. It's a 'Grey' area, but it's very unlikely that it's going to happen, because the only other eligible targets would also have to be engaged before any attacks are assigned.For the reasons I listed above, common sense tells us that the Rapid Fire hits should be directed at the same target as the assigned attack dice. In addition to that, a player could abuse the rule to resolve ALL the Rapid Fire hits against Model A. If that fails, then he could choose to split the Rapid Fire hits against the second model to try and kill the first one.

All along I have said that the extra shots would need to be in engagement range if in close combat

A player couldn't abuse the rule, select targets, roll to hit, if the firepower dice has more than one bullet, assign the extra hits to targets (using the restrictions above) roll to wound, how would he be able to resolve the hits and retry on a second model if he fails

Regardless of how you interpret 'When firing' as a Shooting(B) or a Fight(B) attack, neither of them gets around the restriction that all attacks are limited to Engagment range, and the Rapid Fire rules don't grant any kind of extension to that range like other weapons do. You're not finding any restrictions the way you listed because you're not making the connection of which restrictions are in place.

Again as said above, it would only be models who are engaged, within 3" and in vision arc

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This has been my experience with everyone here so far. I'm happy you appreciate my input as we try to resolve this.

I am finding it really helpful to be able to discus all the points and peoples point of view

 

[Ravensmane]

1) depends on how you read the Side arm and rapid fire rules and how rigidly you apply the grammar and lexicon used.
The Side larm trait says the phrase "single attack" it does not say an attack but single. If it said one attack may made with a side arm then the full rapid fire rules apply but given that the wording is single as in singular which implies only a single shot.
The Rapid fire trait does not address this situation at all. Should you roll two or three that changes a single shot into more than a single one.
Does that change it from a single attack to multiple attacks and thus being ruled out by the wording of the Sidearm trait.
I suggest discussing either interpretation with your group and just deciding on a option and sticking with it.
By having the word Single in the Side arm trait description It implies, in English grammar, that it is a singular effect not a multiple one. If they used the word "an" instead of "single" then it would be more open and thus would be no grammatical distinction that leads to this ambiguity. If they used "an" instead they will also save printing a few letters.

Despite @TopsyKretts claim that Rapid fire can be used and it's clear since 2017, GW keep continually repeat to print that word "single" in every printing of the sidearm trait. It's still in all the printed books and nothing has been changed in any FAQ. Now I am pretty sure it's a case of embedded bad editing and it is intended that rapid fire applies but they keep repeating that word single over and over.

2) should you get the extra shots, see above yes
3) if you miss the hit roll you miss with all the shots. Stray shots only apply to Shoot actions not Fight ones anyway.

Thank you for the reply,

Pistols at Close Quarters
A weapon with the sidearm trait can only have one attack dice allocated to it.

Part of an Auto Pistols attack is Rapid Fire

 

[Ravensmane]

Haven't got the rulebook to hand for references but the way to think of this is that a single attack (if you have 4 attacks only 1 can be with a sidearm) but that single attack (assuming it is successful) causes 1-3 hits from rapid fire.

Yes that's how I read it