Rerolls and order

[SirFrog]

So, after reading this thread on hand-to-hand fighting, I went back and re-read the rules concerning re-rolls, and concluded that they do indeed state that you can only re-roll any given dice once.

There's been at least one thread on the issue previously, but I'm seriously miffed about re-rolls and order. Right now, there's four sources of re-rolls. Hatred, which re-rolls an arbitrary of your own dice at the start of combat, Parry, Deflect (which is Parry 2.0) and Counter Attack. I can understand the "one re-roll per die"-rule, but the timing of this re-roll is crucial to outcomes most of the time.

Now, the FAQ states that the re-roll for Hatred isn't really a re-roll, and doesn't count toward the re-roll limit, but that isn't really obvious from reading the rules, and choosing to re-roll all your dice at the start of your turn could otherwise make you impossible to counter.

So, how to resolve this? I would like to remember that @trollmeat suggested that all "re-roll sources" except hatred stack together and take each other out, that stills begs the question in which order they do so.

I've gotten the following ruling as a suggestion from the other players:

• Re-rolls of your own dice goes first. You may re-roll your own dice any amount of times (in practice, at most twice).
• Your opponent may only force you to re-roll each dice once.

Anybody else have any thoughts?

 

[cardyfreak]

I don't know where it says a hatred re-roll doesn't count as a re-roll. As far as I'm aware, the rule that no dice can be re-rolled twice covers absolutely everything including hatred; the rule doesn't say that no dice can be re-rolled twice, except for hatred dice rolls which don't count; it's pretty explicit that every dice re-roll counts.
I do agree that you should re-roll your own dice first though; remember though that hatred only applies for the first round of combat, after that normal combat rules are resumed.

 

[Ben_S]

I think the problem is if you have hatred (allowing you to re-roll your own dice, likely to be used if they are low) and your opponent has a parry (so he can force you to re-roll your dice, likely to be used if they are high).

I think a sensible compromise, consistent with how some similar things in other GW games work, would be to say that these abilities cancel out - your first roll stands. The trouble with that, however, is what if you have hatred plus a parry, while your opponent has a parry? One option would be that the parries cancel, leaving you still able to re-roll your own dice for hatred. Another would be that hatred and your opponent's parry cancels, leaving you still able to parry your opponent's attacks.

In this case, the first option seems obvious (because it's only parries that are explicitly said to cancel out, whereas the idea of hatred and parry cancelling is a somewhat dubious extrapolation from the rules), but I take it that this is the kind of scenario envisaged: one where there are multiple sources of re-rolls, so it's not clear in what order they happen (or cancel).

 

[SirFrog]

Like I said, it's in the Necromunda FAQ on this very site. Tagged for LRB, sure, but the mechanics behind Hatred hasn't changed. It isn't apparent in the rules, though, and going with the strict "only one re-roll" rule will make anybody with Hatred a rather weird counter to people wielding swords and such. Thus limiting only forced re-rolls.

Edit: Got ninja'd by @Ben_S

In this case, the first option seems obvious (because it's only parries that are explicitly said to cancel out, whereas the idea of hatred and parry cancelling is a somewhat dubious extrapolation from the rules), but I take it that this is the kind of scenario envisaged: one where there are multiple sources of re-rolls, so it's not clear in what order they happen (or cancel).

Yes, exactly. If sources of re-rolls cancel, independent of what they do and their sources, who chooses which sources aren't cancelled? Take a ganger with Counter Attack, a sword and a relevant Hatred, who goes up against an opponent with Deflect and another sword. According to the standard rules, the Hatred goes absolutely first, allowing him to re-roll any amount of dice he wishes once. Next, neither get a Parry due to both having swords. This leaves the first ganger with a Counter Attack and his opponent with Deflect. The order in which these trigger might be crucial to the outcome of the combat, so does whoever shout first go first?

As a counter-example, imagine all sources of re-rolls cancel all other sources of re-rolls. In the same situation, the first ganger has three sources, and the second has two. Thus, the first ganger has one left. Who decides which re-roll he keeps? Which one he keeps could once again be very important to winning a hand-to-hand combat.

 

[Tomcaet]

Isn't the issue actually solved by the one re-roll rule? Order does not matter, if somebody wants to reroll a die then they do so once, no rerolls on that die later. Though if we do allow re-rolls of re-rolls, as it seems is the case with the FAQ wording -

Q: Hatred allows me to re-roll any Attack dice in my first round of combat with my hated opponent. Does this also allow me to re-roll a die that was re-rolled due to parry?
A: [LRB] Unfortunately no. Per the NRC 2005 Findings you will see that a die can only be re-rolled once.
Q: What is the order of Hatred and Parry Re-Rolls in hand-to-hand combat?
A: [LRB] Per the Hatred rules on page 31 of the LRB you must re-roll your attack dice with Hatred first to determine what your actual combat result is. Then, per the Parry rules on page 24 of the LRB you can parry a die of your choice. Keep in mind that you may not re-roll a parried die more than once per the NRC 2005 findings that changed Parry to read 'you may never re-roll a parried die more then once.' This was added so that a fighter with 3 parries versus an opponent with one attack could not force that die to be re-rolled three times.

- problems arise. Technically, only if we allow Counter Attack to go after parries. But if we just use the one re-roll rule then Hatred and Counter Attack (the only two effects of re-rolling your own combat dice) give a slight edge over parries. Is that wrong?

 

[cardyfreak]

I personally believe the order should be;
Psychological effects > skills > weapon effects
The point with re-rolls (and skills in general) should be if it affects your opponent (like deflect or hurl opponent) then they cancel each other out, but if it affects your own fighter (like hatred or counter attack) then they don't.

 

[Tomcaet]

This actually makes me realize an interesting interaction of other re-rolls with the current NCE shape of Parry. It is a "problem" with allowing Counter Attack or Hatred to activate after parries are done. If allowed, the limit of only parrying higher dice can be worked around - you happen to roll low and parry, if you're allowed to Counter Attack now then your die could go high enough to make the parry illegal, were the order reversed. This is an "issue" with the Parry regulation though, doesn't occur on old rules. I still like the new ones.

Although realistically, could a situation actually happen where this order was an issue? Both sides roll dice, generally one of the players will be less content with any given result than the other. If they have resources to change it (Parry, Deflect, Hatred, Counter Attack) then they do. New result, new decision. One re-roll limits the back and forth. Adding order would limit it further.

If both are discontent then it must be interesting. If they want to re-roll the same die then no problem, one of the fighters (the one who cares more, maybe) re-rolls it once. Thanks to the one re-roll, that's it for the die. And it doesn't matter who re-rolled it. If they want to re-roll different dice, then the only case where order matters is Parry - new result could make Parry impossible. But the only way it happens - as parries negate each other so only one side actually parries (Deflect is different), and we enforce the one re-roll rule - is when one player tries to go around the aforementioned Parry limitations. As the fighter'd need to have both parry superiority and a re-roll on own dice - I think I would allow that. Sounds either cool or brutal, depending on the fighters involved.

If we don't enforce the one re-roll though, it gets muddy. Then the swordsganger would want to wait for the die to parry, and their opponent would want to wait for the parry to go off. This one's actually already solved by the re-roll limit. Adding order would again play a similar role.

 

[King Redwart]

Okay now my head hurts

 

[SirFrog]

There's still the issue with Hatred. Assuming we disregard the FAQ ruling, a fighter who triggers Hated could easily be literally unblockable under the strict ruling. One could argue this is thematic, but it is also a bit powerful, if situational. However, it's also something you got for free. I find that, especially with a community-driven rulebook, things shouldn't need an FAQ for rulings like that. I mean, it isn't hard to include a sentence like "This does not count as a re-roll" in the section for Hatred.
Although in rare cases, with two fighters who hate each other, this could effectively nullify all parries and re-rolls on both sides.

It seems like this is just one of those things you have to houserule yourself unless a ruling is made in the next edition.

 

[Tomcaet]

Hatred isn't free for everyone, even Redemptionists have rules. If you re-roll, you have to accept the second result, even if worse. It overall does improve the fighter's chance in the first round against a hated opponent, but that's the intention. If the die ends up as the highest then it's unparryable, still doesn't strike me as too powerful.

NCE doesn't need a FAQ on this, I think. I also think that it actually would if we started to label re-rolls as not-re-rolls.

 

[cardyfreak]

Yes I think that's the important point; the re-roll for hatred, or any other re-roll, is optional, so if they choose not to re-roll their six you can then parry it. That's why the order rolls are carried out in is important to clarify.

 

[trollmeat]

I am not entirely sure what the issue is, but remember I am never awake and do not know what I'm doing, so if someone could explain (simply) what I am doing wrong I'd greatly appreciate it.

-Parries cancel each-other out,..
-Parry and Deflect cancel each-other out, even though Deflect is upgraded parry (generally the only time someone with Deflect won't have a sword is when the other model has Disarm)....
-Counter-Attack lets you re-roll your own, and if your opponent has a parry or deflect then the dice can be re-rolled once, no matter who decides that it should be re-rolled.

...but, I am assuming Hatred re-rolls are not counted towards the Only One Re-roll Rule, which I like as it is only for the first turn of each combat and means that after the Hatred double-roll the combat will continue as normal for the purposes of the three re-roll options (sword[weapon], deflect[skill] & counter-attack[skill]).

I'm trying to get a Redemption gang ready so it'd be nice if NCE did add a line about Hatred being resolved before any re-rolls, and not counting towards the Only One Re-Roll thing, if this is in fact the case... as I think this might be where all the issues stem from? @Anthony?

My examples below ignore Hatred entirely...

Spoiler: some poorly written examples

Jubal vs Ruben
[Parry + Counter-Attack] vs [None]
Jubal will be able to force Ruben to re-roll if Ruben's attack roll is Higher, and then re-roll one of his own attacks. Jubal will be a much more efficient Close Combat fighter than Ruben.

Jubal vs Herbert
[Parry + Counter-Attack] vs [Parry]
Jubal will be able to re-roll one of his own Attacks as the Swords/Parries cancel each-other out.

Herbert vs Mabel
[Parry] vs [Counter-Attack]
Mabel's dice may be re-rolled once, either because she wants to re-roll it, or because the roll was higher than Herbert's and he decides it should be re-rolled.

Walter vs Doris
[Parry + Counter-Attack + Deflect] vs [Parry + Counter-Attack + Deflect]
Nobody gets a re-roll.

Doris vs Mildred
[Parry + Counter-Attack + Deflect] vs [Counter-Attack + Deflect]
The Counter-Attacks and Deflects cancel each-other out, so only Doris is left with one Parry...

.oO(I'm sorry, I'm confuzzled, in general)

 

[King Redwart]

Pretty sure deflect isn't cancelled by opponent having either deflect or parry.

 

[Tomcaet]

Yes I think that's the important point; the re-roll for hatred, or any other re-roll, is optional, so if they choose not to re-roll their six you can then parry it. That's why the order rolls are carried out in is important to clarify.

Is it though? If either side wants to re-roll a die then they do, and it's now locked by the one re-roll rule. If the parried fighter has one die, then that's that. If they have more than one die - it doesn't matter whether Hatred fires before or after Parry or anything else, as nothing can change the re-rolled die anyway. Only case it'd matter is specific cases of Parry, unless - both fighters want to re-roll, but want the other one to use up their resources first. Isn't that fair game though? I don't think the FAQ fragment applies for NCE - one re-roll per die isn't limited in NCE to Parry only, so it's universal. Helps a lot.

I'm of the opinion that thanks to the one re-roll per die rule the order does not matter, and will become crucial only if we lift the rule anywhere. I underestimated the rule. It does limit the back and forth, but through that, it solves a lot of complexity that lurks down there. As an aside, it does come up in many dice systems, doesn't it? Could well be the reason.

The Counter-Attacks and Deflects cancel each-other out, so only Doris is left with one Parry...

Skills currently don't cancel each other out, that's limited to parries.

 

[catweazle77]

It isn't mentioned for Necromunda, but in other GW games the ruling for situations with multiple things happening at the same time was that the player whoae turn it is decides in the order of things happening.
I think one could argue that all potential rerolls happen simultaneously (after attack dice are rolled) so this would be applicable.
Although it would probably make being the charger and not the chargee even more beneficial.

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[enyoss]

Yes I think that's the important point; the re-roll for hatred, or any other re-roll, is optional, so if they choose not to re-roll their six you can then parry it. That's why the order rolls are carried out in is important to clarify.

I've been looking into combat mechanics quite a bit recently and I agree: the order in which skills are activated to retool dice is crucial.

Was a consensus ever reached on how to handle this?

My preferred solution is the following:
1) Both players roll their attack dice
2) Players nominate which of their own dice and which of their opponent's dice they wish to reroll.
3) If both players nominate the same dice for a reroll it is rerolled just once as per the rules.
4) Players reroll all nominated dice.
5) The end

I think it's more simple than the alternatives, and it avoids that weird hatred is a reroll but isn't a reroll mess.

 

[catweazle77]

That actually sounds like a very elegant and also very easy solution.
I like it a lot!

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[HuntingLynx]

I prefer the person whose turn it is makes all their rolls first. Including forcing the opponent to make rerolls. Then the other players may do the same. However, while still following the no rerolling twice rule. So much more simple, and you don't need another chart to refer to.

 

[HuntingLynx]

Alternatively, you could use the initiative of the combating models. With ties broken by the active player's turn.

 

[enyoss]

I prefer the person whose turn it is makes all their rolls first. Including forcing the opponent to make rerolls. Then the other players may do the same. However, while still following the no rerolling twice rule. So much more simple, and you don't need another chart to refer to.

Would each player only get one chance at nominating dice to reroll though?

For example, let's say it's my turn, and I have rolled a 5 and my opponent has rolled a 4. I have a sword, and my opponent has Deflect.

As it's my turn I nominate dice for reroll first. I can't parry as my opponent's highest dice is lower than my highest dice. I have to elect to do nothing.

My opponent chooses to make me reroll my dice using the Deflect skill. I get a 2.

As my opponent's 4 is now higher than my 2, do I now have the opportunity to exercise my parry and make him reroll his dice? Bear in mind that if I did, no dice would have been rerolled more than once.

To take it further, should my opponent have rolled multiple attack dice, if he had Counter Attack could he now elect to reroll one of his other dice (which haven't yet been rerolled) in response to my forcing the parry?

If it does work like this, should a player have several skills and abilities which permit rerolls, e.g. parry, Deflect, Counter Attack, are they allowed to activate them one at a time, each time waiting for their opponent to make a decision on their rerolls before selecting which skill to activate next?

While I don't think there's any problem with the logic in this method at all, it does slow play down a bit by introducing a subgame within the game (albeit, quite a fun one if you like that kind of thing, which I usually do), and can be a pain keeping track of which dice have been rerolled once already and which are still eligible for further rerolls. I could also imagine having to explain how it works quite often, which could get pretty irritating.

That said, it would be interesting to hear other posters' opinions and hopefully come to a consensus one way or the other. Let the people decide!