N18 Roaming Horror+Take Down (delaque skill)

[paxmiles]

"Take Down
When this fighter takes an enemy fighter Out of Action, place that enemy fighter to one side. At the end of the battle, if this fighter's gang has won the scenario, then instead of using the normal method for determining if enemy fighters are captured, roll a D6 for each enemy fighter that was taken Out of Action and placed aside by this fighter. On a 4+, this fighter has the choice of automatically capturing that enemy fighter. As normal, a gang cannot capture more than a single fighter after a battle."
(House of Shadows: Delaque Gang skills)

Can I "take down" Roaming Horrors?

Pretty sure they are enemy fighters, it doesn't roll on the injury table, and malstrain genestealers are worth 270 credits each...

 

[HugeSamples]

If you couldn't capture them normally, then you cannot capture them via Take Down.

 

[paxmiles]

If you couldn't capture them normally, then you cannot capture them via Take Down.

Capturing them normally doesn't work because to capture you normally have to roll on the lasting injury table.
Roaming horrors do not roll on the lasting injury table, so via the normal means, you cannot capture them.

However, as quoted above, Take Down specifically ignores the normal means to capture, which only requires them to be out of action and doesn't specify a need to roll on the lasting injury table.

Can you find better evidence to the contrary?

 

[Aulenback]

Take Down is awkward. It is specifically written to interact with the 2018 edition rules around Capture, which are completely altered in the 2023 edition rules. That doesn't tell me whether this WILL work or WON'T work, but it is a reminder that questions around Take Down are worth bearing in mind.

Restraint Protocols for the Enforcers has similar difficulties, in that it too was written exclusively with the 2018 edition's Capture rules in mind.

In the 2018 rules, only one fighter could be captured, and any subsequent potential captures automatically escaped. That is no longer true since Capture was moved to part of the Lasting Injury chart.

Webbed condition was updated to reflect the new rules around Captured, but the others [Take Down and Restraint Protocols] were not.

Instead of rolling on the LastingInjury table, roll a D6 to determine what happens tothem – on a result of 1-4 suffer the 15-26 (Out Cold)result, on a 5-6 they suffer the 55-56 (Captured). [...]
After the battle, all fighters who suffered a Captured (Lasting Injury result) must roll a D6 to attempt to slip away. Apply the following modifiers:
● Draw: -1.
● Loss: -2.
● Webbed (when taken Out of Action): -2.
● Skinblade: +2.
Roll a 4+ to successfully avoid capture (escape before being dragged away) and go into Convalescence. A roll of 6 (before modifiers) is always successful. Otherwise the fighter is captured by the enemy gang.

 

[HugeSamples]

Can you find better evidence to the contrary?

I don't have the book you are referencing, but it sounds to me like the intent is that they aren't able to be captured and you're trying to "game" the system. If that's the case ask your arbiter, their rule is the law for the campaign.

I do have house of shadows, and like @Aulenback said this rule was written with an older capture system in mind.

 

[paxmiles]

I don't have the book you are referencing, but it sounds to me like the intent is that they aren't able to be captured and you're trying to "game" the system. If that's the case ask your arbiter, their rule is the law for the campaign.

I do have house of shadows, and like @Aulenback said this rule was written with an older capture system in mind.

I do think that take down is specifically designed to game the system. No doubt there.

A lot of the delaque stuff seems built to game the system. That's kinda their thing.

But I'm not really pushing this one, I just find the rules interaction amusing. Assuming that Take Down is allowed at all under any circumstances, then it's actually beneficial for my opponent to allow the roaming horrors to be captured (because you can only capture 1 fighter per game according to take down).

Take down is especially rules abusive when combined with non-sanctioned psyker, since that rule allows us to bypass any potential rescues and immediately sell the fighter to the guilders.

 

[paxmiles]

In the 2018 rules, only one fighter could be captured, and any subsequent potential captures automatically escaped. That is no longer true since Capture was moved to part of the Lasting Injury chart.

huh. Yeah, not seeing a limit on 1 per battle in the 2023 rulebook.

But the Delaque Take Down one definitely has it.

 

[TopsyKretts]

As mentioned N23 rules is a different version of the game. The changes to Capture system broke Take Down skill.

 

[paxmiles]

As mentioned N23 rules is a different version of the game. The changes to Capture system broke Take Down skill.

In what sense? It works as written.

"Take Down
When this fighter takes an enemy fighter Out of Action, place that enemy fighter to one side. At the end of the battle, if this fighter's gang has won the scenario, then instead of using the normal method for determining if enemy fighters are captured, roll a D6 for each enemy fighter that was taken Out of Action and placed aside by this fighter. On a 4+, this fighter has the choice of automatically capturing that enemy fighter. As normal, a gang cannot capture more than a single fighter after a battle."

Says to ignore the normal means of capturing enemy fighters. So we ignore the rulebook and do this, which is spelled out precisely as to what you'd do. How is that unclear or broken?

The only real oddity is that I could only capture one fighter if I follow this, and the rulebook theoretically allows multiple captures. Seems like a balancer.

 

[Aulenback]

Do you then include the "slip away" check? Or do you ignore that, as part of the normal method?

If so, that suddenly makes every weapon from that fighter vastly more powerful than a web gun, despite the original rules not doing so.

If not, then you are not ignoring the normal method.

Knowing the intent with how it interacted with / replaced the original captured rules might help understand the difference it would make with this change.

If only one gang has fighters on the battlefield at the end of the battle, there is a chance that they might capture a fallen enemy. Roll 2D6 and add the number of enemy fighters who went Out of Action (including those who have succumbed to their injuries during the wrap up). If the gang also includes a Bounty Hunter, add +1 to the result of the roll. If the result is 13 or greater, an enemy fighter has been Captured. Shuffle together the Fighter cards of any enemy fighters who went Out of Action, but not those of any that suffered a Critical Injury or Memorable Death result, they are left where they fell! Draw one of these Fighter cards at random – that fighter is Captured. Make a note in the Lasting Injury/Captured By box on the gang roster for the Captured fighter, recording the name of the gang of the player who has Captured the fighter. Whilst a fighter is Captured, they are unavailable for battles and post-battle actions as if they were In Recovery – however, this lasts until they are freed (as follows) rather than for just one battle. The Capturing gang should make a note in the Stash section of their gang roster of the name of the fighter they now hold Captive.

That is what this replaces, with a single 4+ chance to capture a single fighter, on a scenario which the fighter's gang wins.

By comparison, the 2023 rules for Captured are as quoted in the earlier comment above, although Webbed as it was altered to interact with the new system might be a good model on which to base a house ruled update to Take Down:

If an Out of Action result is rolled, the fighter succumbs to the powerful sedative and is removed from play. Instead of rolling on the Lasting Injury table, roll a D6 to determine what happens to them – on a result of 1-4 suffer the 15-26 (Out Cold)result, on a 5-6 they suffer the 55-56 (Captured) result.
[...]
55-56 Captured: The fighter might be Captured (see page 142).
[...]
After the battle there is a chance that any fighters who have been captured by the opposing gang may be able to slip away while being taken away: Capturing Enemy Fighters: Roll a D6 for each friendly fighter that suffered a Captured result (55-56) on the Lasting Injury chart and apply the below modifiers:
• -1 if the battle was a draw.
• -2 if the fighter’s gang lost the battle.
• -2 if the fighter was taken Out of Action while subject to the Webbed condition.
If the result is 4+ then the fighter successfully escapes their bonds before being dragged away and goes into Convalescence (a natural roll of a 6 always results in the captive escaping). Otherwise the fighter has been Captured – make a note in the Lasting Injury/Captured By box on the gang roster for the Captured fighter, recording the name of the gang who has Captured the fighter.

So proposed interpretation, which is a house rule, not Rules As Written, Take Down would instead read:
"When this fighter takes their first enemy fighter Out of Action during each scenario, place that enemy fighter to one side. At the end of the battle, if this fighter's gang has won the scenario, then Instead of rolling on the Lasting Injury table, roll a D6 to determine what happens to them – on a result of 1-3 suffer the 15-26 (Out Cold)result, on a 4-6 they suffer the 55-56 (Captured) result." (which would then take you to page 142).

 

[HugeSamples]

In my opinion, it's a NPE--negative play experience--skill that frankly feels bad for everyone involved. Less so for the era of rules it was written for, but still not great. I think it was designed as a form of credit generation, but it might as well read on a 4+ kill a model. Because once you capture a model your opponents choices aren't great:

- pay the ransom--likely at least 75% of the model's value for it to be worth it for the take down player.
- play a rescue mission where they risk more models getting captured.
- do nothing and the take down player gains 50% of the model's value in credits.

If they managed to capture an unsanctioned psyker they get 100% value (on top of the d3x10 for taking it out of action in the first place) and no chance at rescue. i.e. that model is dead and they made a huge profit.

If you take this skill you turn into "that guy", which feels bad for both you and your opponent.

It needs to be complete redone and made into something else IMO.

 

[TopsyKretts]

So proposed interpretation, which is a house rule, not Rules As Written, Take Down would instead read:
"When this fighter takes their first enemy fighter Out of Action during each scenario, place that enemy fighter to one side. At the end of the battle, if this fighter's gang has won the scenario, then Instead of rolling on the Lasting Injury table, roll a D6 to determine what happens to them – on a result of 1-3 suffer the 15-26 (Out Cold)result, on a 4-6 they suffer the 55-56 (Captured) result." (which would then take you to page 142).

Perhaps choose from those taken OoA to better resemble the original effect?

 

[Aulenback]

I defaulted to "first" only because in the 2023 edition, Lasting Injury is (RaW) rolled immediately after the fighter is taken Out Of Action, instead of as part of the post-battle wrap-up (and there are now a couple of things, like the HALO device, and a scenario or two, that rely on that timing) so was trying to think of how to least disrupt that.

 

[paxmiles]

In my opinion, it's a NPE--negative play experience--skill that frankly feels bad for everyone involved. Less so for the era of rules it was written for, but still not great. I think it was designed as a form of credit generation, but it might as well read on a 4+ kill a model. Because once you capture a model your opponents choices aren't great:

- pay the ransom--likely at least 75% of the model's value for it to be worth it for the take down player.
- play a rescue mission where they risk more models getting captured.
- do nothing and the take down player gains 50% of the model's value in credits.

If they managed to capture an unsanctioned psyker they get 100% value (on top of the d3x10 for taking it out of action in the first place) and no chance at rescue. i.e. that model is dead and they made a huge profit.

If you take this skill you turn into "that guy", which feels bad for both you and your opponent.

It needs to be complete redone and made into something else IMO.

Yeah, with you on this one. I find the capture rules entirely unfun.

In addition to being unfun, the capture rules aren't very practical. I mean, not everybody has time for a rescue mission in addition to regular games, every week.

BUT...vs Roaming Horrors? I don't really see how it harms the opponent any. I don't have to be "that guy" with roaming horrors. It's not significantly different than the savant Fixer skill - it's higher gain for higher risk in terms of credits, but it's just a skill that gives me credits.

If I'm running delaque, and delaque is considered a legal gang, then I don't see why I wouldn't be able to use the skills I have available to me, unless other gangs were similarly being denied access to their skills - Though if it's on offer, I'd love to trade Take Down for a roll on another gang's skill list. Delaque has 6 skills....so does everyone else, why wouldn't I be able to use my 6 if you can use your 6?

You could ban delaque....but I don't think they're even a contender for the strongest gang...

Do you then include the "slip away" check? Or do you ignore that, as part of the normal method?

My read is that take down replaces the need for a lasting injury roll to qualify for "being captive" in the post battle sequence, and limits the total captives to 1 (max), but doesn't otherwise alter the post game captives step.

So you'd roll for take down, get your 1 captive, and then see if they escape exactly as you would have done if they'd rolled a Captured result (55-56) on the Lasting Injury table.

If it was intended to ignore the escape rule, it would have mentioned that it was intended to ignore Skinblades, since in the 2018 rules, skinblades were the method used to escape capture (now they just add a modifier).

And take down is not without requirements.
1) I have to take the skill, which my opponent would be made aware of at the start of the game, as normal.
2) I have to take out of action the target with that character.
3) I have to win the battle.
4) I have to roll a 4+ to successfully use Take down
5) The fighter has to not escape (which is a 6+ they need to roll, since take down requires that I win and being on the losing side imposes a -2 penalty. Would be a 5+ with the skinblades almost every fighter can buy, and a 4+ with escape artist too).

And the same House of Shadow book has the non-sanctioned Psyker rule in it, so those are clearly intended to work together.

I don't regard "take down" as a house rule. It works as written and it seems as legit as using anything else in the house of shadows book.

And take down isn't particularly overpowered. And almost every fighter has access to skinblades...

 

[paxmiles]

And for context, as a delaque only skill, consider our options here.

We have access a single heavy weapon (heavy flamer), no melee weapons with more than 1 damage, our cheapest melee weapon is 20pts, only the phantom (champion) has the delaque skill list as primary...(The natch ghul champion and leader have it secondary, and nobody else has it at all, not even the brute).. Webs....but no web weapon has more range than template... Plasma gun or maybe a long rifle.

...but there's no missile launcher or lascannon in our list, we don't even get access to krak or frag grenades.

I think Take Down would be a lot more impressive on another gang's skill list. You know, one that could really hurt the enemy from far away with non-risky weaponry. But delaque doesn't really have that. At best we could infiltrate with a meltagun, but if it doesn't work, that seems like a very expensive blunder.

 

[HugeSamples]

And for context, as a delaque only skill, consider our options here.

We have access a single heavy weapon (heavy flamer), no melee weapons with more than 1 damage, our cheapest melee weapon is 20pts, only the phantom (champion) has the delaque skill list as primary...(The natch ghul champion and leader have it secondary, and nobody else has it at all, not even the brute).. Webs....but no web weapon has more range than template... Plasma gun or maybe a long rifle.

...but there's no missile launcher or lascannon in our list, we don't even get access to krak or frag grenades.

I think Take Down would be a lot more impressive on another gang's skill list. You know, one that could really hurt the enemy from far away with non-risky weaponry. But delaque doesn't really have that. At best we could infiltrate with a meltagun, but if it doesn't work, that seems like a very expensive blunder.

Take Down works just fine with a plasma gun.

 

[paxmiles]

Take Down works just fine with a plasma gun.

But imagine Van Saar with take down...that's all I was saying. The skill would be a lot more impressive on another gang.

 

[HugeSamples]

1) I have to take the skill, which my opponent would be made aware of at the start of the game, as normal.
2) I have to take out of action the target with that character.
3) I have to win the battle.
4) I have to roll a 4+ to successfully use Take down
5) The fighter has to not escape (which is a 6+ they need to roll, since take down requires that I win and being on the losing side imposes a -2 penalty. Would be a 5+ with the skinblades almost every fighter can buy, and a 4+ with escape artist too).

1. No one is going to tech for anti-capture.
2. Not a hard feat.
3. You're trying to do that anyways
4. You get a 50% chance per model you take out of action to capture one of them. Not exactly bad odds, and a feels bad moment every time.
5. Are you sure they get the chance to escape? Page 142 of the Core Rulebook says "Roll a d6 for each friendly fighter that suffered a capture result (55-56) on the lasting injury chart and apply the modifiers below...". Take Down says "instead of the normal method". So does this apply? It depends who you ask.

Any way you choose to play Take Down is going to be a "house rule".

You can take whatever skills you want, no one is telling you that you can't take it. It's just not a fun skill for either player IMO.

Many people quit the game/start over if their leader gets killed or captured, especially if it happens early.

 

[HugeSamples]

But imagine Van Saar with take down...that's all I was saying.

I fail to see the argument. You can buy heavy weapons on the trading post. Van Saar just get pre first game access.

 

[paxmiles]

1. No one is going to tech for anti-capture.
2. Not a hard feat.
3. You're trying to do that anyways
4. You get a 50% chance per model you take out of action to capture one of them. Not exactly bad odds, and a feels bad moment every time.
5. Are you sure they get the chance to escape? Page 142 of the Core Rulebook says "Roll a d6 for each friendly fighter that suffered a capture result (55-56) on the lasting injury chart and apply the modifiers below...". Take Down says "instead of the normal method". So does this apply? It depends who you ask.

Any way you choose to play Take Down is going to be a "house rule".

You can take whatever skills you want, no one is telling you that you can't take it. It's just not a fun skill for either player IMO.

Many people quit the game/start over if their leader gets killed or captured, especially if it happens early.

1. So I'm the only one?
2. Yes, but it means that if the opponent is really trying to avoid this, they can steer their leader clear away from my takedown character.
3. I love your optimism...
4. per guy taken out by the character with take down. Last time I took a guy with take down, he died... That's why I keep going back to the big guns. If I could reliably kill lots of your fighters in a single shot from far away it certainly be more impressive than if I'm killing them one at a time at mid-close range.
5. hmm...I don't see it like that. I mean, if you are allowed to use the house of shadows book, then you can't really complain that it's out of date or not compatible. It's either compatible or it isn't. Telling me that anyway I use rules as written is a houserule doesn't feel right to me.

I read it one way, the arbitrator definitely has final call on it, so in that sense, I guess all the rules are houserules. So I guess we're debating semantics.

Anyway, this lovely can of worms was supposed to be about using take down with roaming horrors, and isn't really about the legality of using take down in the first place.