N18 Rule clarification (for listbuilding)

[Hobo86]

I'm curious if I interpret these correct:

1) While countercharging with a dual plasma pistol build, I need to end up in base-to-base contact and using my WS I can make 2 plasma pistol attacks.
I do not get an accuracy bonus due to being in melee? I do get an accuracy modifier +1 because my opponent is engaged with one of my friendly models*
2) Same situation but with a plasma pistol and lascutter (versatile). Do I need to use my WS for all my attacks or do i use my WS for my lascutter attacks (at 2")
and my BS with a +1/2 accuracy modifier for the plasma pistol attack?*
3) Can I self target with a smoke grenade while being engaged in melee? does my opponent get a reaction attack if the smoke template covers either of us?
or does this only work if another of my models throws his smoke grenade?
4) Can my leader/champion activate nearby friendlies while countercharging?
5) It's a small chance but hey... . Can I (while being engaged in melee) knock back my opponent with my assault shield and shoot my opponent with my webber?
(or is this scenario only possible after an additional activation and after having knocked my opponent back)*
6) When can you fire in melee? only: A) if you're engaged and have a weapon with the 'sidearm' trait
B) you're not engaged in melee but shoot with another weapon into a melee engagement with a -1 accuracy penalty?
so shotgunning my opponent while being engaged in melee is not an option?

* = engaged with one target

 

[Aulenback]

2) While Versatile is an awkwardly written rule, lots of folks figure that since the pistol does not have Versatile, it cannot make attacks at Versatile range at all, based on the reasoning that someone engaged by a Versatile-weapon-wielding fighter at range does not get reaction attacks with pistols, but only with Versatile weapons.

3) Ranged attacks - including grenades - are not as standard available to fighters who are Standing and Engaged. If you are Engaged, generally no grenades at all. Including Smoke.

4) If "countercharge" here means "Activating the leader as normal while someone else nearby is Engaged," then yes, because Group Activation triggers on Activating the Leader or Champion. If "countercharge" here means, say, using the Threat Response skill from the Palanite skills list, [EDIT: CORRECTION - Threat Response DOES Activate the fighter in question, which means yes, A leader COULD use a Group Activation as part of Threat Response. Sigh. That's messy.]

5) After you knock back your opponent, if you have an additional, separate action and are now not Engaged, you could make that action a Shoot (Basic) action. If for example you Activate the fighter and they are already Engaged (say, they were charged previously and survived), if you use their first action as a Fight action and successfully trigger Knockback, you can be no longer Engaged, and use your second Action as a Shoot Action. But only if you have an Action left for the Shoot (Basic) action required.

6) You aren't firing (Shooting) from within melee. Weapons with the Sidearm trait allow for a single, second-weapon Melee attack, using Weapon Skill (thus the "no range bonuses," because it isn't a Shooting attack at all). Shooting INTO melee with a Shoot Action from outside of melee, with a fighter who is not Engaged, is something separate.

 

[Hobo86]

1) is 1 correct assuming my captain uses threat response?

2) i assume that's fair... might have to tweak my list

3) same, another model can still 'smoke-bomb' that melee?

4) yes, I thought of using it with threatresponse

5 & 6) thank you for clarifying

 

[Aulenback]

1) While countercharging with a dual plasma pistol build, I need to end up in base-to-base contact and using my WS I can make 2 plasma pistol attacks.

Threat Response: someone in range (6" range) gets Charged. Threat Response triggers, interrupting that Activation.
1. Activate the Threat Response fighter. * Immediately make a Charge (Double) Action toward the model that charged the nearby friendly. Palanite fighters have a 5" move, plus d3" for charging means they should almost always reach base contact. Then make melee attacks with either melee or sidearm weapons (in this case, two plasma pistols). A Palanite Captain having 2 Attacks, +1 for second weapon, +1 for charging, means rolling two dice for Plasma Pistols (each Sidearm weapon can only have one attack) and two dice for Unarmed Attacks. Resolve any hits.
2. Return to the interrupted Activation already in progress.

* This gets messy, because Group Activation (X) can be triggered since the fighter is being Activated; Group Activation (Exotic Beast) must be triggered since the fighter is being Activated; tactics cards that get played on a fighter when you Activate them can be played since the fighter is being Activated. All of those would need to fully resolve as part of 1. before we can get back to 2.

Eeesh.

 

[HugeSamples]

2) Same situation but with a plasma pistol and lascutter (versatile). Do I need to use my WS for all my attacks or do i use my WS for my lascutter attacks (at 2")
and my BS with a +1/2 accuracy modifier for the plasma pistol attack?*

Only weapons with the Versatile trait can be used at versatile range for "melee". Plasma pistols don't have versatile, therefore they cannot be used in melee at versatile range (they don't have one).

If you're in base to base then you can use both the pistol and lascutter using your WS (las cutter would have +1 to hit for its engaged range). If you are not in base to base but 2" away (the versatile range for the lascutter), then you would just use the las cutter rolling with your WS.

 

[Hobo86]

ok, guess I'll build that badzone captain from plasma pistol/assault shield to lascutter/plasma pistol/shield
replacing the plasma pistol with a bolter could give more range/options but would largely neutralize his countercharge early game.

the hope is to kill the opponent or 'knockback' + er... team effort

 

[BranBuccarcher]

That's a very expensive counter charger, how are you arming the rest of the gang after that?

 

[Hobo86]

I would start with a plasma pistol + shield and I'd add the lascutter later on.
in the long run a bolter instead of the plasma pistol would add some er...longer-ranged threat at the cost of likely neutralizing the 'countercharger' role early game

I could post my excel and ask for feedback later.
(but it's 8 bodies/no backup weapons at 1000 creds)
it's a bit risky with the scarce rule...

 

[Beebopalulla]

Wait a minute.

So let's say you are in fight you fight with a knockback weapon. The target is push back. Can you or not strike with a versatile weapon then ?

 

[Hobo86]

in the lascutters case you get +1 accuracy close up... so you'd be better off not using the versatile range of the lascutter

in the plasma pistol/shield's case you'd charge/get in melee range, do your attacks and possibly end up with a knockbacked attacker
(i assume other friendlies can then shoot this er... target up quite nicely)
(you're technically not engaged anymore)

for the scenario you told... yes you could but the question is if it's not smarter to first do your lascutter attacks and then do your shield attacks.
you lose the +1 acc at versatile range
(your remain engaged)

 

[Aulenback]

The text in the N23 Core Rule Book that "Roll separately for each different weapon being used by the fighter and/or for different targets" suggests that different weapons either are or at least can be rolled sequentially. If so, it would make sense that a Versatile (1" or more) weapon could still roll even after Knockback without a follow-up?

 

[Beebopalulla]

Well i m thinking about that with Squat and power pack in mind. i will read the rest tomorow.

 

[Hobo86]

a few extra questions/clarifications:
-can scrap shields be combined with vigilance assault shields/hystar energy shields? as RAW one is equipement and another is a weapon?
-when activating fighters with the leader/champion ability, can these fighters turn to face a new foe?
by example standard activation: move up and attack/shoot 1 foe,
get re-activated by the leader (group activation), turn and attack/shoot another foe?
-am I correct to assume an armored undersuit can be combined with a flak vest or an hazard suit but not with both?

Asking for player advice;
I have one starter gang list with 1 leader/1 champion/ 3 gangers/2 others
Would it be a good idea to start with such a 'command-less' gang? obviously I can take more 'leaders' with less equipment, but for this list to work they need certain toys...

 

[Aulenback]

1. Not sure?
2. Whenever a fighter is Activated, before taking any Actions, they get a free change of facing that does not count as movement. Group Activations activate fighters in sequence, so as each one Activates in turn, it would get its free change of facing. But that isn't the same as Overseer - Group Activation does not allow a fighter to activate again if it has already used its Ready marker by Activating on its own. That would be Overseer. And Overseer is ... debatable. As written, it does not actually Activate the fighter in question, it just gives the target two Actions. It is the Overseer fighter who Activates (and thus would get the free change of facing), not the target of the ability.
3. Undersuit is explicitly able to combine with armour, but armour are generally not compatible with each other - for example the Flak Armour or Hazard Suit. It is the hazard suit and flak that cannot be combined.

 

[Hobo86]

2. and counting a badzone captain/leader using threat response and activating nearby models during it's 'countercharge' fase?
3. ok, as I thought... can be useful against a certain gang that comes with hazard suit ^^

I'm worried starting with only 2 hierarchy models could handicap me in a campaign
(both in the post battle trading and the risk of having too much models in recovery/not being able to treat injuries)

edit: characters in 'smoke*' areas can by targeted by hierarchy abilities?

* smoke grenades

 

[Aulenback]

I'm worried starting with only 2 hierarchy models could handicap me in a campaign
(both in the post battle trading and the risk of having too much models in recovery/not being able to treat injuries)

I certainly cannot claim to be the best strategist for the game. That would be other players. But the solid possibility of not having access to Trade / Medic post-battle actions could be rough, and could be rough very early. Also, champions generally are a better stats-per-credit value than gangers (who in turn are better credit value than most Juves), despite being more expensive.

2. There are actually a recent couple of threads on exactly this subject. Hang on. Will see what a quick forum search turns up.

Threat Response skill DOES explicitly give an Activation

So Threat Response, unlike Overseer, gives a full Activation, which would then include a free change of facing before either Action.

N18 - Fast Shot and Vision Ark

If you have the Fast Shot skill, can you take two different shots in different vision arcs? So for example: Ganger with Fast Shot: 1) Shot One: Shoots a ganger in front of him 2) Shot Two: Turns around and shoots somebody behind him Ends turn facing the person he last shot at. OR, is it: 1)...

yaktribe.games

 

[Hobo86]

ok, I'm not going to spell out the full strategy I intend to use (as I may end up playing against a fellow yakmember)
from feedback I hear my plan B list may work but comes with a possible disadvantage...

for my threat-response strategy to work: are ready models all standing models who are not blinded? or are pinned models also 'unready'

 

[Aulenback]

Ready models are fighters who still have their Ready marker because they have not yet been Activated.

During the start pf each turn, each fighter gets a Ready marker, and they lose it when they get Activated to take their two Actions.

Some things do change that - Spyrers get two Ready markers, for example, and Overwatch uses your Ready marker out of turn, Flash strips markers, etc. But essentially, Ready just means they still have their Ready marker from the start of this turn.

 

[Hobo86]

that makes a leader using threat response + group activation somewhat unlikely, as models need to be 'ready' to allow that

 

[paxmiles]

and my BS with a +1/2 accuracy modifier for the plasma pistol attack?*

The sidearm rule specifically says that the accuracy modifiers don't apply when making melee attacks.

I'm unclear, but I don't think the penalty on accuracy for wielding both pistols applies in melee.