N18 Rule clarification (for listbuilding)

[Hobo86]

The sidearm rule specifically says that the accuracy modifiers don't apply when making melee attacks.

I'm unclear, but I don't think the penalty on accuracy for wielding both pistols applies in melee.

correct, but this build includes a shield with knockback

shortrange shooting scenario (assault shield + plasma pistol)
knockback with a shield + (+1/+2) short range modifier (due to knocked back) +(+1) lasprojector = +3 at short range (on top of ballistic skill)

melee scenario (assault shield + plasma pistol)
threat response means the attacker is in contact with a friendly model = +1 to hit (on top of weapon skill)

melee scenario (assault shield + lascutter)
threat response means the attacker is in contact with a friendly model = +1 to hit + (+1) lascutter to hit modifier in melee range = +2 to hit (on top of weapon skill)


i was thinking about using a gunfighter/fastshot build next to the threat response/shield build

 

[Aulenback]

Wait a minute.

So let's say you are in fight you fight with a knockback weapon. The target is push back. Can you or not strike with a versatile weapon then ?

Choose the order in which to resolve your attacks, with knock back attacks last, if desired. Remember that technically attacks are sequential, and happen one after the other (because of rules like knockback and toxin), even if we tend to shorthand by grouping up, and even if that shorthanding is mentioned in the rulebook. Sometimes the rules around some attacks require them to be done sequentially.

I think the Versatile attacks would still “work after knockback,” but if you have already rolled the hits at E range with those bonuses, that would seem sketchy. Better to use the other order

 

[paxmiles]

correct, but this build includes a shield with knockback

melee scenario (assault shield + plasma pistol)
threat response means the attacker is in contact with a friendly model = +1 to hit (on top of weapon skill)

But again, the sidearm rule specifically says the accuracy bonuses don't apply in melee. That is what you are talking about, right? You want to apply the sidearm (in this case plasma pistol)'s accuracy bonus to your melee attacks with the plasma pistol.

So I don't understand your +1 to hit. Even if you knock them back with your shield on the charge, all your attacks are still melee attacks, which includes the pistol.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Hobo86]

@paxmiles:
I'm assuming you can (possibly, as it's not guaranteed)) attack/knockback your opponent into the shortrange ranged range
and 'if' I'm able to knockback my opponent I could choose to:
A) shoot a sidearm pistol at short range (with shortrange ranged modifiers)
B) attack with a versatile melee weapon (at versatile range/ and possible versatile + to hit modifiers)
C) move up 1" and attack with a non-versatile melee weapon (at melee range/ to hit modifiers)

as threat response means you will engage an already engaged enemy you will get a +1 modifier to hit if (C) applies

@Aulenback/paxmiles:
roughly as aulenback mentions

edit: just to mention but there are 2 'numbered lists' on the previous page, this one talks about the last one

 

[paxmiles]

@paxmiles:
I'm assuming you can (possibly, as it's not guaranteed)) attack/knockback your opponent into the shortrange ranged range
and 'if' I'm able to knockback my opponent I could choose to:
A) shoot a sidearm pistol at short range (with shortrange ranged modifiers)
B) attack with a versatile melee weapon (at versatile range/ and possible versatile + to hit modifiers)
C) move up 1" and attack with a non-versatile melee weapon (at melee range/ to hit modifiers)

as threat response means you will engage an already engaged enemy you will get a +1 modifier to hit if (C) applies

@Aulenback/paxmiles:
roughly as aulenback mentions

I guess I keep picturing this as part of a charge (such as from threat response).

So for that, the answer is definitely "no" for A.

However, if you were already in engagement range, you could use the Fight basic action to knock them out of engagement, and then the shoot basic action to shoot them.

But the charge (or threat response) is a double action that includes a free fight basic action, not any shoot actions.

 

[Hobo86]

I guess I keep picturing this as part of a charge (such as from threat response).

So for that, the answer is definitely "no" for A.

However, if you were already in engagement range, you could use the Fight basic action to knock them out of engagement, and then the shoot basic action to shoot them. The sidearm rule is really clear that the accuracy bonus only applies with shooting.

But the charge (or threat response) is a double action that includes a free fight basic action, not any shoot actions.

yes, but during a charge,
-I can use my shield to attack (and possibly knockback)
-and I can shoot with a sidearm (maximum 1 attack)

i do admit this interaction well... isn't quite covered if it's possible or not...
is the shooting attack:
A) a single sidearm 'attack' in a melee
B) a separate attack making use of the changed conditions incurred by the shield/knockback attack

I would argue that if you first declare how you attack and with what weapons (3 attacks with a shield, followed by a sidearm attack)
you should count it as (B)

caveat... that would also imply you likely lost the +1 to hit from attacking an already engaged enemy model.

 

[paxmiles]

yes, but during a charge,
-I can use my shield to attack (and possibly knockback)
-and I can shoot with a sidearm (maximum 1 attack)

Ah, I see the confusion. Read the rules more closely: Only close combat attacks with the sidearm as part of the fight basic action. And without versatile, only engagement range for close combat attacks.

Sidearm​

Weapons with this Trait can be used to make ranged attacks, and can also be used in close combat to make a single attack. Note that their Accuracy bonus only applies when making a ranged attack, not when used to make a close combat attack.​

​

Fight (Basic)​

The fighter makes close combat attacks against one or more enemy fighters they are engaged with (see Close Combat).

 

[Hobo86]

ok, so in this case (this is starting to become a fairly lengthy discussion )
my model 'threat response' countercharges, shoots his oppenent once in melee with his sidearm and bashes him (3-4) times with his shield 'possibly' preventing a reaction attack from his opponent.

hmmm... got your six doesn't require a ready marker...

 

[paxmiles]

ok, so in this case (this is starting to become a fairly lengthy discussion )
my model 'threat response' countercharges, shoots his oppenent once in melee with his sidearm and bashes him (3-4) times with his shield 'possibly' preventing a reaction attack from his opponent.

hmmm... got your six doesn't require a ready marker...

No worries, as long as we aren't looping our arguments, then it's productive..

Though regarding the plasma pistol, remember that it's "scarce." It probably won't last the whole battle.

Also, just because you have 2 weapons, doesn't mean that you have to use both in melee. You could opt out of using the pistol entirely (or the shield, if you didn't want them knocked back).

 

[Hobo86]

true,... but that's why I was thinking about combining it with an equally scarce lascutter
the other gunfighter build could end up with another backup pistol at some point

for badzone enforcers, the ganger boltguns/shotguns/concussive carabines are also scarce...
I would likely need a few backup weapons at some point

 

[paxmiles]

true,... but that's why I was thinking about combining it with an equally scarce lascutter
the other gunfighter build could end up with another backup pistol at some point

for badzone enforcers, the ganger boltguns/shotguns/concussive carabines are also scarce...
I would likely need a few backup weapons at some point

Do badzone enforcers have access to lascutters?

Anywho, starting to sound really expensive....Is this combination really worth the credits?

 

[Hobo86]

Do badzone enforcers have access to lascutters?

Anywho, starting to sound really expensive....Is this combination really worth the credits?

trading post...and definitively not at the start...

 

[paxmiles]

true,... but that's why I was thinking about combining it with an equally scarce lascutter
the other gunfighter build could end up with another backup pistol at some point

for badzone enforcers, the ganger boltguns/shotguns/concussive carabines are also scarce...
I would likely need a few backup weapons at some point

Okay, sake of argument, if you aren't planning to use the plasma pistol to make close combat attacks, what about replacing it with like a krak grenade? The grenade occupies zero weapon slots, It's offensive profile is pretty comparable to the plasma pistol (aside from sidearm), and it can make your "Got your six" shots. And the krak grenade has a better ammo check than the plasma pistol. Plus no temptation to kill your own fighter overcharging.

 

[paxmiles]

huh, if rarity and credits are no concern, the melta bomb is like a superior version of a super charged plasma pistol, but it isn't unstable...

 

[Hobo86]

for this build to activate its 'threat response' i need to keep the shield/plasma pistol build 'ready', in 6" range of a model that will be charged and I won't be able to offensively attack with him/her to keep it 'ready'. (it is there to defend a bunch of various shooters) the plasma pistol allows for one extra attack.

(so if I build my captain like this: 2 base attacks + 1 charge attack + pistol/shield = 4 attacks on the countercharge or on the charge)
if I can kill my opponent that's good, if I can't, group activation may still help.

following this list the chance of scarce activating is fairly small in the above scenario... and I will be fairly conservative with the overcharge function...

Hammer of Math: Necromunda Ammo Checks

It’s been just a little bit of time since Hammer of Math went into the Underhive, but we’re back this week with a look at the math behind Ammo checks. Click. Nearly every ganger fears t…

www.goonhammer.com

 

[Aulenback]

Note that "got your six" is much more generous than "threat response" i a lot of ways, but both are strong.
it doesn't require a Ready marker. The shot happens before Engagement Range so if you can pin them, the Charge is stopped. If it is a Blast weapon it might hit them even if it deviates? If it is a Knockback weapon, it could push them out of range for a successful Charge, this once again stopping the Charge from succeeding. It happens during an opponent's Activation, and so you then get to Activate someone immediately afterward (to shoot at them again?).

Threat Response IS harder to pull off because of the needed Ready marker [like overwatch]. It does guarantee the +1 for a melee assist, due to its timing. A Knockback weapon can also once again completely prevent the actual initial Charge's Fight action from happening (by moving them out of range). It can never pin the opponent in question, because you cannot be pinned while Engaged. It also happens during an opponent's Activation, and so you then get to Activate someone immediately after they finish the Charge action and its free Fight (Basic) (to shoot at them?).

huh, if rarity and credits are no concern, the melta bomb is like a superior version of a super charged plasma pistol, but it isn't unstable...

But also cannot be used as a sidearm in melee. [* It feels strange commenting NOT enthusiastically promoting only the up-sides of greandes....]

Second Best have a couple decent guides to help frame up some thinking around both:

Palanite Enforcers — Second Best Guides

www.secondbestguides.com

Badzone Enforcers — Second Best Guides

www.secondbestguides.com

 

[paxmiles]

for this build to activate its 'threat response' i need to keep the shield/plasma pistol build 'ready', in 6" range of a model that will be charged and I won't be able to offensively attack with him/her to keep it 'ready'. (it is there to defend a bunch of various shooters) the plasma pistol allows for one extra attack.

(so if I build my captain like this: 2 base attacks + 1 charge attack + pistol/shield = 4 attacks on the countercharge or on the charge)
if I can kill my opponent that's good, if I can't, group activation may still help.

following this list the chance of scarce activating is fairly small in the above scenario... and I will be fairly conservative with the overcharge function...

Hammer of Math: Necromunda Ammo Checks

It’s been just a little bit of time since Hammer of Math went into the Underhive, but we’re back this week with a look at the math behind Ammo checks. Click. Nearly every ganger fears t…

www.goonhammer.com

Good source for the math, looks like I was off. Though with the grenades, you could certain just take extras. Like a melta bomb and a krak grenade. I don't recall if you can just take duplicates of the same wargear.

I was more thinking about got your six, than threat response.

PS: are you suggesting that you can use threat response to activate group activation?

 

[Aulenback]

Threat Response gives an Activation, in entirety, interrupting a Charge action. As written (and very thoroughly discussed elsewhere here on the forum, where I learned a thing or three), it would allow the use of Group Activation (X), each of which would need to resolve, before returning to finish off the remainder of the original Charge (Double) that triggered it.

That said, that requires multiple Enforcers who are still Ready, and have not been activated, and are in range of various fighters for this to work (Threat Response has a range for that fighter, and then Group Activation has a range for the other(s), and so on). It would not likely work out very often, but if it did work out, it would be memorable, and likely get talked about for the rest of the campaign, as "remember when..."

Threat Response gives an Activation. As such, you can get a free change of facing at the beginning, could use Group Activation (X) if they have it, and can also activate an Exotic Beast with which they are equipped.

When it triggers successfully.

 

[Hobo86]

@ paxmiles... I believe aulenback suggested this earlier (either here or another topic).
if I recall it well, he was surprised himself, he quoted it in his message above here
@ aulenback: I definitively see got your six as a strong skill, but it's a bit tempered by the enforcers average ballistic skill and I plan to build it into a build
somewhere. either on a template build or in a range where I can get +1 to hit.
PS: it shoots at the target at the place it declares the charge from?


for Goliaths/ogryns I would totally go 'grenadebuild'

 

[Hobo86]

Threat Response gives an Activation, in entirety, interrupting a Charge action. As written (and very thoroughly discussed elsewhere here on the forum, where I learned a thing or three), it would allow the use of Group Activation (X), each of which would need to resolve, before returning to finish off the remainder of the original Charge (Double) that triggered it.

That said, that requires multiple Enforcers who are still Ready, and have not been activated, and are in range of various fighters for this to work (Threat Response has a range for that fighter, and then Group Activation has a range for the other(s), and so on). It would not likely work out very often, but if it did work out, it would be memorable, and likely get talked about for the rest of the campaign, as "remember when..."

Threat Response gives an Activation. As such, you can get a free change of facing at the beginning, could use Group Activation (X) if they have it, and can also activate an Exotic Beast with which they are equipped.

When it triggers successfully.

also it could seriously mess up alpha strike builds with infiltrators... (if your opponent charges)