N18 Rules Question: Paired Weapon Trait and how it interacts with bonuses

Tirend

Juve
Jun 5, 2018
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Maryland
So I ran into a bit of a pickle with how the new Paired weapon trait works. We ended up having to roll it off to determine how it worked.

Paired: A fighter that is armed with Paired weapons count as being armed with dual weapons with the Melee trait for the purposes of calculating the number of Attack dice they will roll. Additionally, when making a Charge(Double) action, their Attacks characteristic is doubled

The issue that came up was how does this interact with bonus attacks? Is the +1 Attack from Dual Melee/Charging considered to be modifying your Attack characteristic?

The example that came up was that I had a Skinner (Attack 1) armed with a paired weapon(+1 Attack) who charges(+1 Attack).

If the bonuses don't modify his attack characteristic, then he would get 4 attacks ((1*2)+1+1); if they do, he would get 6 attacks ((1+1+1)*2). I argued that it made little sense for it to only affect their base attack stat because the bit it gives for modifying stats on page 41 just says to modify it without any care of how or where it came from. However the counter argument was that the Dual Melee and Charge were extra attack dice and were not getting added to their stat.

So from curiosity, is anyone aware of something that would help clarify this?

Edited for clarity
 

Scavvierising

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The determine attack dice section, to me anyway. Reads that the modifier for charging etc is applied to the number of attack dice rolled not the characteristic. But can also be read as modifying the attack stat. So I can't give you a definitive answer. However...
Doubling everything sounds a little overkill. Especially with the heavy cleavers doing 2Dmg.
Different games I know but frenzy in many GW publications used to only double the base stat.
I think this could be one of those lines drawn in the sand argument and each group will go their own way.
 

Baffo

Gang Champion
Aug 2, 2018
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Apparently in the GW stream on the Twitch it only doubled the base attack characteristic.
That said, you need to sub or someshit to watch it so I can not confirm that.
Yes, I watched that stream live and there they doubled only the base Attack stat.

Our group's interpretation in general is that any 'effect/special rule' that Multiplies a characteristic is always applied before any other rule that Adds/Subtracts to a characteristic, so 'Doubling the Attacks' is applied to the base stat first and then add the extra attacks from Dual weapons/Charge/Berserk/Frenzy.

That said, if you were inclined to interpret it the other way around, I would point out that a Cutter/Butcher with Paired Heavy Chain cleavers+Berserk+Frenzy would have 2 Attacks base +1 (for dual weapons) +1 (for normal charge bonus) +1 (from Berserker) +D3 (from Frenzy) = 6-8 Attacks before Doubling it due to Paired trait (with the second interpretation), getting up to 12-16 attacks from one charge (as opposed to 8-10 attacks with my group's interpretation) and if even just one of those attacks gets past the target's saves, said target will go automatically OoA (most characters have at most 2 wounds, so 1 wounding hit from a chain cleaver is enough to cause Injury roll and trigger the Sever trait).

I would argue 12-16 attacks is definitely over the top and not as intended (those are 40k stomping Titans number of attacks and even maxed-out Khorne 'Smash' Chaos lords don't get to such numbers of attacks).
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
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I'd argue that the wording is actually unambiguous for once:
The number of Attack dice rolled is equal to the fighter's Attacks characteristic, plus the following modifiers
  • Dual Weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait (+1)
  • Charging (+1)
Can it really be read as anything but the bonuses granting additional dice?
Berserk or Counter-attack also clearly state that 'they roll one additional attack dice' so the Attacks characteristic is left untouched.

On the other hand, if the Paired weapons wielder somehow triggers a Demonic possession peril of the Warp (+3 Attacks), or uses 'Slaught (+1 Attacks), I believe the bonus should get doubled by Paired (as would any bonus gained through advancements).
 

Tirend

Juve
Jun 5, 2018
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3
Maryland
Ah, I was under the impression that the bonuses were bonuses to attack not just extra dice. Seems odd to word it that way until you have something exactly like Paired coming along.

Regardless, if that's how GW plays it I'll play it that way too. I sorta do the same with the Corpse Grinder Cult Icon since the book has it as an untyped action but the Warhammer Community Article lists it as a Simple action.

Thank you all!
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
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I sorta do the same with the Corpse Grinder Cult Icon since the book has it as an untyped action but the Warhammer Community Article lists it as a Simple action.
Yeah, they failed their copy/paste for The Book of Ruin. In the Dark Uprising rulebook the action is classified as Simple (it's also Personal Equipment and not Gang Equipment, but that doesn't really matter). However, we still don't know whether you should roll a single D3 and apply the result to all affected fighters, or roll a separate D3 for each one of them.
 

Tirend

Juve
Jun 5, 2018
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3
Maryland
Any other reason for it being simple than to use it 2 times?
That's pretty much the only use for it. Being able to get +2d3'' of movement vs only +1d3'' of movement on a key turn could be huge. I usually I have some random initiate running around with it so that I don't mind losing its turn for that round.
 

Baffo

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That's pretty much the only use for it. Being able to get +2d3'' of movement vs only +1d3'' of movement on a key turn could be huge. I usually I have some random initiate running around with it so that I don't mind losing its turn for that round.
I believe the Corpse grinder's Cult icon can only be carried by the Butcher or one of the Cutters, so you can't assign it to an Initiate to be the Cheap Speed buff for the entire gang:)
 
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That's pretty much the only use for it. Being able to get +2d3'' of movement vs only +1d3'' of movement on a key turn could be huge. I usually I have some random initiate running around with it so that I don't mind losing its turn for that round.
I played a match two days ago with that and rolled two 5's. With visions of slaughter, I had 11 base movement, and then was making 11+d3 charges and hitting 25 inch charges. It was dummy good.
Also, as mentioned, only a Leader/Champ can have a CGCult Icon.
 

GraverobberTX

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Feb 17, 2019
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Yes, I watched that stream live and there they doubled only the base Attack stat.

Our group's interpretation in general is that any 'effect/special rule' that Multiplies a characteristic is always applied before any other rule that Adds/Subtracts to a characteristic, so 'Doubling the Attacks' is applied to the base stat first and then add the extra attacks from Dual weapons/Charge/Berserk/Frenzy.

That said, if you were inclined to interpret it the other way around, I would point out that a Cutter/Butcher with Paired Heavy Chain cleavers+Berserk+Frenzy would have 2 Attacks base +1 (for dual weapons) +1 (for normal charge bonus) +1 (from Berserker) +D3 (from Frenzy) = 6-8 Attacks before Doubling it due to Paired trait (with the second interpretation), getting up to 12-16 attacks from one charge (as opposed to 8-10 attacks with my group's interpretation) and if even just one of those attacks gets past the target's saves, said target will go automatically OoA (most characters have at most 2 wounds, so 1 wounding hit from a chain cleaver is enough to cause Injury roll and trigger the Sever trait).

I would argue 12-16 attacks is definitely over the top and not as intended (those are 40k stomping Titans number of attacks and even maxed-out Khorne 'Smash' Chaos lords don't get to such numbers of attacks).
I concur this sounds like it'll be a line in the sand moment for some, but I'm with you here, Baffo. I don't think it's a matter of interpretation though. The Paired Trait specifically doubles the Attack Characteristic not the number of attack dice. Gotta admit to wanting to misread it the first few times my eyes slid off it but why be deliberately disingenuous when there's so many other gray areas. I don't think it's a matter of preventing overkill (which CGC wants) or narratively deducing an interpretation. This one seems like a very straightforward order of operations.

SO many ways to add attack dice though...whew!
 
Feb 12, 2019
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I concur this sounds like it'll be a line in the sand moment for some, but I'm with you here, Baffo. I don't think it's a matter of interpretation though. The Paired Trait specifically doubles the Attack Characteristic not the number of attack dice. Gotta admit to wanting to misread it the first few times my eyes slid off it but why be deliberately disingenuous when there's so many other gray areas. I don't think it's a matter of preventing overkill (which CGC wants) or narratively deducing an interpretation. This one seems like a very straightforward order of operations.

SO many ways to add attack dice though...whew!
Considering the wording of the book about it, bonus from charging or dual wielding are considered characteristic modifiers that increase the stat, not bonus die like Berserker. RAW, you'd be getting 8 attacks. RAI is (obvious with stream) just the base attack characteristic.
As far as I know, Necromunda hasn't had it's order of operations of additions and multipliers set up, where either multipliers or additions are done first. I could be wrong, and I know some people just assume GW's 40k of 'multipliers first' rule of thumb.
 

Tirend

Juve
Jun 5, 2018
11
3
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Maryland
I believe the Corpse grinder's Cult icon can only be carried by the Butcher or one of the Cutters, so you can't assign it to an Initiate to be the Cheap Speed buff for the entire gang:)
Whoops, I missed that. Just saw it in the Equipment list and such. That makes it much more questionable then to me, as to whether it's worth it as I run my three cutters as using Rotary Flensing Saws.
 

GraverobberTX

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Feb 17, 2019
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Considering the wording of the book about it, bonus from charging or dual wielding are considered characteristic modifiers that increase the stat, not bonus die like Berserker. RAW, you'd be getting 8 attacks. RAI is (obvious with stream) just the base attack characteristic.
As far as I know, Necromunda hasn't had it's order of operations of additions and multipliers set up, where either multipliers or additions are done first. I could be wrong, and I know some people just assume GW's 40k of 'multipliers first' rule of thumb.
I must be looking at the wrong books or maybe section? Charging (+1) and Dual Weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait (+1) have always been listed as modifiers to the number of Attack dice. It's possible I've spent too much time with English style guides >_< but I've never seen this read any other way...not even in the 90s version. Which books or sections are you finding that reading? Or am I just suffering dinosaur syndrome?

Forgive me if my tone sounds rougher than I intend! I'm just seriously amused by sentence diagramming supporting the RAI argument and completely disproving the RAW argument. I promise I'm not an English professor or linguist (I speak American btw lol) though I must confess to being married to a published author.
 
Feb 12, 2019
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I must be looking at the wrong books or maybe section? Charging (+1) and Dual Weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait (+1) have always been listed as modifiers to the number of Attack dice. It's possible I've spent too much time with English style guides >_< but I've never seen this read any other way...not even in the 90s version. Which books or sections are you finding that reading? Or am I just suffering dinosaur syndrome?

Forgive me if my tone sounds rougher than I intend! I'm just seriously amused by sentence diagramming supporting the RAI argument and completely disproving the RAW argument. I promise I'm not an English professor or linguist (I speak American btw lol) though I must confess to being married to a published author.
On page 41 of the Rulebook it says "Sometimes, the rules will modify a characteristic. If the characteristic is given a simple number, the modifier is applied as written - for example, if a fighter with Strength 3 is given a +1 Strength modifier, their Strength counts as 4."
On page 68, for determining attack dice it says "The number of Attack dice rolled is equal to the fighter's Attacks characteristic, plus the following Modifiers:
Dual Weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait (+1)
Charging (+1)

These are modifying the characteristic, which determines your attack dice.

Then on page 148 for the Berserker skill is says "When this fighter makes close combat attacks as part of a Charge (Double) action, they roll one additional Attack dice. This one is not a modifier, but a flat extra attack dice.

Now say a Butcher has charged. He has two attacks base, but with these modifiers his Attack characteristic is now a 4, which with the Paired trait that doubles your attack characteristic, it would be 8. Now it can be taken that the Paired trait only effects the base Attack characteristic, or the modified one, but without a order of operations it's really just a toss up. The note that on Stream the players only doubled the base is the only point of reference for how the rule is meant to be applied in so far.

And you're fine, it's a honest question and I'm just laying out how I've read what is written. I've missed a lot of basic things due to how Necromunda has been written, but anyways this is my break down of it. Make sense now?
 

GraverobberTX

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Feb 17, 2019
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On page 41 of the Rulebook it says "Sometimes, the rules will modify a characteristic. If the characteristic is given a simple number, the modifier is applied as written - for example, if a fighter with Strength 3 is given a +1 Strength modifier, their Strength counts as 4."
On page 68, for determining attack dice it says "The number of Attack dice rolled is equal to the fighter's Attacks characteristic, plus the following Modifiers:
Dual Weapons with the Melee or Sidearm trait (+1)
Charging (+1)

These are modifying the characteristic, which determines your attack dice.

Then on page 148 for the Berserker skill is says "When this fighter makes close combat attacks as part of a Charge (Double) action, they roll one additional Attack dice. This one is not a modifier, but a flat extra attack dice.

Now say a Butcher has charged. He has two attacks base, but with these modifiers his Attack characteristic is now a 4, which with the Paired trait that doubles your attack characteristic, it would be 8. Now it can be taken that the Paired trait only effects the base Attack characteristic, or the modified one, but without a order of operations it's really just a toss up. The note that on Stream the players only doubled the base is the only point of reference for how the rule is meant to be applied in so far.

And you're fine, it's a honest question and I'm just laying out how I've read what is written. I've missed a lot of basic things due to how Necromunda has been written, but anyways this is my break down of it. Make sense now?
So you're choosing to misread. Yup, makes sense now. ;)

The number of attack dice being modified is absolutely not a characteristic being modified. Glad this isn't a question of some page missing from my collection. Thanks for clearing that up!
 
Feb 12, 2019
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So you're choosing to misread. Yup, makes sense now. ;)

The number of attack dice being modified is absolutely not a characteristic being modified. Glad this isn't a question of some page missing from my collection. Thanks for clearing that up!
I could say the same thing. I'm not choosing to misread it, it literally says modifies, and says nothing about adding attack dice. Funny how these exact differences are made in the book. It's pretty clear. And when you change a characteristic as it mentions, it makes funny interaction with the paired trait.

Now, I couldn't guess as to why you'd read this modifier as different to all the others, but who knows.
 

Kiro The Avenger

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Apr 4, 2018
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It literally says that the attack dice is equal to the attacks characteristics plus [stuff].
Seems pretty clear to me that the [stuff] is separate to the characteristic.
 
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Just like someone's strength for a melee attack is their Strength + [Stuff] from weapons or cards or drugs.
I don't see why you would work Attacks any differently then every other characteristic in the game.
 

Baffo

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If this discussion was about a paragraph in the rules of any modern competitive Game system (like Warmachine/Hordes, Guild ball, ecc...) I would see the point of debating the nuances and use of specific game terms like 'attacks' vs 'attack dice' or if the use of the word 'modifies' also implies that is a 'characteristic modifier' from a game mechanic point of view, but we are talking about GW Specialist games dev team (1-2 overworked devs with a mediocre editor), so unfortunately I would suggest you can't really use the RAW wording for a coherent and consistent rules interpretation (there are often mistakes, different weapon profiles and contradicting rule descriptions within the same book).
That is why every gaming group needs to agree on some House rules to pin down ambiguous rule descriptions and weird interactions; you don't need to reach a 'consensus within the international Necromunda community', because this isn't an international competitive game, but rather a 'local gaming group legacy tactical role-play game', you just need to reach a 'local consensus' on the rules. It does not need to be perfect or even right in the eyes of 'outsider players', just the people in your group need to be on the same page on how you are interpreting/house ruling it.
It is fine if you disagree on this rule interpretation on these forums (and obviously you 2 won't sway each other either way), what really matters is that whichever way you go with it, your own gaming group is aware and agrees with it.
Cheers!
 

Thorgor

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Well, it's pretty clear to me that charging and dual-wielding grant you extra attack dice and don't modify the Attacks characteristic. Pardon the pseudo-code, but that's the only way my mind accepts to parse those rules:
Code:
nbOfAttackDice = fighter.Attacks;
if (fighter.isCharging())
{
    nbOfAttackDice++;
}
if (fighter.isDualWielding())
{
    nbOfAttackDice++;
}
From a design point of view, it makes perfect sense. Why would you temporarily modify a characteristics and then use it as the base of a calculation? Just use it as the base of a calculation.

However, as previously stated, other effects exist that just as unambiguously modify the Attacks characteristics, so we still need to determine when the multiplicative effect applies relative to them.
The more readily available is simply the +1 Attacks advancement. I guess most players would naturally apply the doubling of Paired after that +1, as it modifies the base characteristic of the fighter.
Then there is the +1 Attacks you can get from taking a dose of 'Slaught. You can either start the game with this modifier or take the drug during the game but I don't think it should change anything. Should we simply apply the effects in chronological order (first the +1 and then the doubling in this case, as it only happens when the fighter charges)? Or should we use an 'additive first' approach, to keep the numbers as low as possible?
The only other such effect I found is the Daemonic Possession result from the Perils of the Warp table (a whopping +3 Attacks). It's extremely unlikely to happen to a fighter with Paired weapons (for the moment, only CGC have access to them, and they have no psyker), but it's possible (if they become a psyker when trying to gather ghast during the Ghast harvest scenario). I'm not really confortable with doubling a +3 bonus, but that's such a fringe scenario that it's probably no big deal.