Rules Suggestions- Action Phase (Movement)

Orngog

YCE Project Manager
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Once again, all suggestions please! Please remember to post in the appropriate thread, we're making good headway already but let's not make this job any more of a headache than it needs to be...

Just to make things more of a headache (lol), this thread is now for actions and movement- not shooting or close combat which have their own threads. Sorry ʕっ•ᴥ•ʔっ

Also, as a totally unaffiliated member of the site, please consider donating to help keep this awesome resource up for us all!
 
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Orngog

YCE Project Manager
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First off then, action points has been raised before.

Secondly, we should bear in mind how some skills interact with activations and actions.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
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The action phase is huge, 15 pages in the hardback rulebook. Do we want to break it up? Maybe having shooting and close combat as separate threads?

Regardless, here's a quick list of my grievances.

- fleeing the battlefield.
It needs to be clarified and ideally homogenised between a gang choosing to flee, and each of their fighters failing cool checks. I don't think there should be significant mechanical differences between the two.

- I definitely support moving to action points.

- we need to clear up how forced actions work. Such as Blaze and Broken and how they overlap.

- we've talked about changes to charging and the 1" rule, is that a discussion for here or in a sub thread like close combat? There's a lot to talk about.

- I'd like to see reloads changed a little, I don't like how you just choose the best ammo result on a multi-profile weapon.
Buying smoke grenades and reloading your grenade launcher on a 4+ is a bit silly.
IMO you should roll the dice, and any profile it meets the result for gets reloaded. So if you roll a 5 with a grenade launcher, you can fire smoke but not krak until you reload and get a 6.

- I don't like the Blind Fire action being a thing.
Combined with prone fighters being untargetable when in cover, it allows a fighter to shoot whilst almost totally invulnerable.

- on a similar note, I think being prone should just increase your cover 'state' by one. So if you're in light cover it counts as heavy, and if you're in heavy cover you can't be targeted at all.
It seems a bit cartoony having a prone fighter 100% hidden behind a lamppost.

- I'd also like I'd fighters could drag seriously injured comrades like a loot crate, probably at half-move though. I like the idea of dragging people into cover.

- obviously decisions in general principles about things like pre-measuring and how it works is very relevant here.

- I don't really like how falling and jumping down use completely different 'breakpoints'.

- jumping gaps, I'd like to be able to use a second move action in the middle of the jump, just like climbing.
Alternatively we could add a move (double [or 2AP]) action to remove both issues.
But we need to be careful with Overwatch in that case.

- for combat, we need to clarify how multiple shots/hits/wounds/etc are resolved.
My preference is for everything being simultaneous.

- improbable shots should apply to melee as well imo. And probably just be a general rule for characteristic checks.

- blasts and templates is a whole can of worms. I don't like how they ignore 90% of normal rules. But again, a discussion for a shooting section?

- stray shots. My group houseruled that effectively cover influences the roll. So you're hit on a 1-3 in the open, 1-2 in light cover, and 1 in full cover/out of LoS. Just removes a lot of the sillyness but still means firing through a corridor of your own fighters is a big risk.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
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Whoo, boy. Here we go. For the sake of consistency, for now I'll stick to GW's simple-basic-double action types and not Action points, also I'll only highlight stuff that I think needs changing.
Edit: I agree with Kiro, we need to break this topic up. Too much stuff to discuss all at once.
  1. pg.57: Change "If a leader or champion is activated in this way, they may not perform a Group activation themselves!" to "if a fighter capable of initiating a Group activation is activated this way...". Better to make sure that there is 0% chance of chain group activations due to some unnoticed loophole in the future.
  2. Active fighters:
    • Move (Simple): Making this action twice in a row provides a fighter with a "Fast target" condition. "Fast target" condition provides a -1 to hit penalty for ranged attacks tagetting this fighter if they are standing in the open field, or improve partial cover to a full cover. Condition is lost at the start of next fighter's activation, or when fighter changes status to Engaged, Pinned or Seriously Injured.
    • Charge (Double): Select enemy as a target of a charge action. This action becomes different if fighter has status Pinned. Activated fighter makes a double movet towards target using shortest route possible. Once the fighter reaches base to base contact with a target, they stop and may (add clarification: but do not have to) immediately make a free Fight (Basic) action
      • Clarification for how "shortest route possible" is done: Whenever fighter has to move to other fighter using shortest distance, move its model along the line which crosses centers of both models. In case if that line goes through impassible terrain, model may change movement trajectory in order to move around obstacles, but movement trajectory has to remain as short as possible. Dangerous terrain, terrain elements higher than 2", pitfalls which would have caused fighter to jump over, enemy or friendly models not allowing ending movement due to occupying final space – all of it may count as Impassable terrain when determining shortest distance. In other words, when moving to target using shortest route, fighters do not have to risk their lives and move through dangerous terrain or jump over pitfalls, if it is possible to simply move around it.
    • Coup de grace (Simple) is removed and can only be done as a part of a Fight (Basic). The reason is because it is possible to use Move (Simple) to circle around a protecting fighter and Coup de grace their seriously injured right next to them. Blocking charges becomes a viable tactic.
    • Not sure about this one, but maybe Aim (Basic) is tweaked not to give a +1 to hit, but something else, like not triggering an ammo check on missed shot. Or removed from the game. +1 to hit is a really powerful buff to shooting coupled with short range bonuses.
    • Add ability to carry injured friendly fighters.
    • Following actions are moved to a separate chapter (perhaps "interactable terrain elements"?). They take too much space and are not used in most of games anyway. All of these actions should be doable both by Active and Pinned fighters, otherwise pinning has too much of an impact.
      • Crawl through a ductway.
      • Fire through ductway.
      • Operate Door.
      • Force Door.
      • Smash open loot casket.
      • Bypass loot casket lock.
      • Carry Loot casket/Ammo crate.
  3. Engaged fighters:
    • Change it so an enemy first passes an Initiative test and makes reaction attacks. Retreating fighter might become OOA as a result of reactionary attacks, so they should roll last. Unsuccessful retreat should end fighter's activation, otherwise a failed retreat followed by failed reaction attacks is not that big of a penalty.
    • Retreat (Basic) – Every enemy in base contact with activated fighter makes an Initiative test. In case they pass, they can make Reaction attacks. If retreating fighter is not Injured and hasn’t become Out of Action, they make an Initiative test. If it is assed, they can make a Move (Basic) action, moving up to D6" instead of their Movement characteristic.
  4. Pinned fighters:
    • Remove Blind fire (Double). Being able to fire at someone, while being untargetable in return is gamey as hell. Not to mention how messy TLoS is when it comes to determining whether or not pinned fighter can even see enemies to Blind fire.
    • Add Charge (Double) action. Pinned fighter stands up and makes a single move towards target using shortest route possible. Once the fighter reaches base to base contact with a target, they stop and may (but do not have to) immediately make a free Fight (Basic) action. This fight (Basic) action gets no bonus attacks and any skills that require a successful charge do not trigger. (I can't stand the fact how helpless melee fighters become once pinned. Its as if they forget how to walk all of a sudden)
  5. Clarify how Broken fighters run for cover. Right now it can cause arguments since fighter running for cover can be beneficial or detrimental depending on a route.
    • Running for cover (Double)If the fighter is Active, they will move 2D6". If the fighter is Pinned or Seriously injured, they can only move half of their Movement characteristic. When a Broken fighter moves they must attempt to end their move in a way to fulfill conditions below:
      • Fighter has to be more than 3" away from enemy fighters.
      • Fighter has to be out of Line of sight of enemy fighters.
      • Do not move a broken Fighter if they already satisfy №1 and №2 conditions.
      • Fighter has to end their Move in partial or full cover provided by terrain features relative to all visible enemies.
      • Fighter has to end their Move as far from enemy fighters as possible.
 

Al_Weeks

Gang Champion
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Dec 22, 2014
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I'd like to see reloads changed a little, I don't like how you just choose the best ammo result on a multi-profile weapon.
Buying smoke grenades and reloading your grenade launcher on a 4+ is a bit silly.
IMO you should roll the dice, and any profile it meets the result for gets reloaded. So if you roll a 5 with a grenade launcher, you can fire smoke but not krak until you reload and get a 6.
Agreed, however I favour the make an ammo test on the profile of the ammo type you just failed the ammo roll for (as its ment to represent jams etc). There is then a conflict potentially with a limited ammo you just ran out off, but again you could still use that ammo value to 'reload/clear the jam', brings a another downside to limited ammos (which might not be too bad).

on a similar note, I think being prone should just increase your cover 'state' by one. So if you're in light cover it counts as heavy, and if you're in heavy cover you can't be targeted at all.
It seems a bit cartoony having a prone fighter 100% hidden behind a lamppost.
Agreed, would this replace the -1 for targeting prone fighters at long range or be in addition to it? I don't mind either way really.

- I'd also like I'd fighters could drag seriously injured comrades like a loot crate, probably at half-move though. I like the idea of dragging people into cover.
Yes, it's a good action to have, and seems an odd omission.

we've talked about changes to charging and the 1" rule, is that a discussion for here or in a sub thread like close combat? There's a lot to talk about.
I think shooting and close combat are such large topics that that probably need to be treated separately. Ideally we'd have a solid handle on the changes to actions in general first.

I don't really like how falling and jumping down use completely different 'breakpoints'.
Seems reasonable to consolidate them into one for ease of play experience.
You could argue jumping down and stacking it is slightly less damaging than falling, but I feel that's splitting hairs, and ease of play trumps that.

- jumping gaps, I'd like to be able to use a second move action in the middle of the jump, just like climbing.
Alternatively we could add a move (double [or 2AP]) action to remove both issues.
But we need to be careful with Overwatch in that case
I think that should you attempt to jump a gap and find you need a second move action, you must be forced to declare it immediately, complete the second move then resolve I tests etc. The use of must prevent odd situations.

Overwatch presumably takes place at the position that fighter would be after the first move action is completed (and because it's a jump, its presumed they moved as far as they could in that first move action).


- for combat, we need to clarify how multiple shots/hits/wounds/etc are resolved.
My preference is for everything being simultaneous
I agree simultaneously is best, because it allows fast rolling, which I think is a quality of life measure. It helps the game progress faster.


blasts and templates is a whole can of worms. I don't like how they ignore 90% of normal rules. But again, a discussion for a shooting section?

- stray shots. My group houseruled that effectively cover influences the roll. So you're hit on a 1-3 in the open, 1-2 in light cover, and 1 in full cover/out of LoS. Just removes a lot of the sillyness but still means firing through a corridor of your own fighters is a big risk
Obs I'm in favour of those stray shot rules, I can't imagine why.

But agreed shooting is a whole topic of it's own.
 

TopsyKretts

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Agreed, however I favour the make an ammo test on the profile of the ammo type you just failed the ammo roll for (as its ment to represent jams etc). There is then a conflict potentially with a limited ammo you just ran out off, but again you could still use that ammo value to 'reload/clear the jam', brings a another downside to limited ammos (which might not be too bad).
It is a clean solution, but it requires some book-keeping while playing the game.
 
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TopsyKretts

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- stray shots. My group houseruled that effectively cover influences the roll. So you're hit on a 1-3 in the open, 1-2 in light cover, and 1 in full cover/out of LoS. Just removes a lot of the sillyness but still means firing through a corridor of your own fighters is a big risk.
We house ruled something simpler, stray shots hit on 6+ regardless of anything. Easy to remember. Either way, official 50% stray shot hit cannot stay.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
802
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Bristol, UK
I don't think simply being injured should block your retreat.
Seriously injured maybe, but I think even they should be able to crawl away, even if just d3 to avoid an easy CdG.

I do agree that we could clarify how broken fighters run. I like the addition that they don't run anymore if they're out of LoS.
Perhaps they could make themselves prone if they're still in LoS?

What benefits would be gained by moving from simple/basic/double actions to action points?
It just avoids the confusion of "action" referring to both a resource and, well, an action.
A fighter might only make one Double action in their turn, which consumes both of their actions.

It also clarifies things that change action types, like Fast Shot turning shooting into a Simple action. It just makes it clear that a Shoot (Simple) action still triggers a rule that calls for a Shoot (Basic) action, like Terrifying.

We house ruled something simpler, stray shots hit on 6+ regardless of anything. Easy to remember. Either way, official 50% stray shot hit cannot stay.
Problem with that approach is that firing into your own people's backs doesn't carry much risk, especially if you already have a decent chance to hit.
 
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Thorgor

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I'd love Shooting into melee to be way more difficult than it currently is. Engaged fighters are supposed to always be in motion and regardless of how good a shot you are, there should be a high risk of hitting the wrong one.

How about this:
  • You can shoot at an Engaged fighter with no specific penalty. However, if the hit successful, roll a D3. On a 1, a random fighter who is Engaged to the target is hit instead of them.
  • When using a Blast or Template weapon, every fighter Engaged to a fighter hit by the attack is also automatically hit.
Also, doing the above could require passing a Willpower check first if one of the Engaged fighters is a friendly fighter.
 

Al_Weeks

Gang Champion
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Dec 22, 2014
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We house ruled something simpler, stray shots hit on 6+ regardless of anything. Easy to remember. Either way, official 50% stray shot hit cannot stay.
I agree that there should be a change.

I feel they should be a reasonable level of risk if your firing past your own fighters in a corridor.

Personally it's one of the things that gives the 'ZM' games there own distinct feel of tight confines.

I'm sure there is a halfway house between the two proposals, and either way we can playtest several ideas if required.
 

Al_Weeks

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I'm very much in favour of moving actions to an AP cost and specifically stating if they are repeatable or not
 
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JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
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I think should discuss only actions here, their function and type. Also removal and addition of actions should be discussed here. I think that actions of broken and insane fighters should discussed in their own threads.

Shooting and close combat are huge topics and each should be discussed separately. Otherwise we turn this thread into suggestion writer's nightmare.
 
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Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
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Bristol, UK
I'll post here the editor's suggestions from the rules compilation on Discord, found here;
Document: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocdfxcvb399ind7/NCR.pdf?dl=0
Discord: https://discord.gg/PfJgVD8
I've put my own comments in [square brackets] after each point.

Leaders and Champions who are seriously injured cannot be used for "Leading by Example".
[I like this ruling]

Leaders and Champions who are seriously injured, hidden by a Falsehood, or under the effects of a chem cannot initiate a group activation.
[I like the seriously injured bit, the Falsehood bit kinda (but I wish the Falsehood wasn't a thing in general), and I think it should be Chem dependent.]

Crawling through a Ductway is normally a Basic action.
[I'm inclined to disagree, popping from one side of an impassable wall to the other is very powerful. But it would make the action much less powerful]
If the fighter is Strength or Toughness 4, it's instead a Double action.
And if the fighter is Strength or Toughness 5 or higher, they can't crawl through ducts at all.
[I get what they're going for, but I'm not so sure]

Blind Fire is a Basic action, and combines with Fast Shot to become a Simple action.
[Nope, I'd sooner remove Blind Fire]

Crawling becomes a Basic action
[I don't really see the benefit unless you're also making Blind Fire a Basic action, which would be a good reason not to do this]

They list all special actions, such as those granted by skills or wargear, in the Action phase section. Each action description includes the prerequisite item/skill/whatever.
[It's nice to have these all in one place, but it's a lot of actions]

Fighters can move into base contact without making a Charge move.
[Charging is a big topic with a lot of possible changes, but I generally support the removal of the 1" rule]

After charging, a fighter can do nothing, Fight, or any other Basic action that can be performed whilst engaged, such as Hurl or Restrain.
[I like this, it makes those skills actually feasible to use]

Then I'll leave specific comments on shooting and close combat for future topics dedicated to those.
 

Al_Weeks

Gang Champion
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Dec 22, 2014
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We could use base size instead for that.
I feel base size is useful for a lot of things like this.

I'm inclined to agree that making moving through a duct way a 1AP action is a big change.

But "base size" and how that limits the interactions one can have with terrain / the enviroment is an area worth exploring.
 

Al_Weeks

Gang Champion
Honored Tribesman
Dec 22, 2014
345
386
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Bristol
I'll post here the editor's suggestions from the rules compilation on Discord, found here;
Document: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocdfxcvb399ind7/NCR.pdf?dl=0
Discord: https://discord.gg/PfJgVD8
I've put my own comments in [square brackets] after each point.

Leaders and Champions who are seriously injured cannot be used for "Leading by Example".
[I like this ruling]

Leaders and Champions who are seriously injured, hidden by a Falsehood, or under the effects of a chem cannot initiate a group activation.
[I like the seriously injured bit, the Falsehood bit kinda (but I wish the Falsehood wasn't a thing in general), and I think it should be Chem dependent.]

Crawling through a Ductway is normally a Basic action.
[I'm inclined to disagree, popping from one side of an impassable wall to the other is very powerful. But it would make the action much less powerful]
If the fighter is Strength or Toughness 4, it's instead a Double action.
And if the fighter is Strength or Toughness 5 or higher, they can't crawl through ducts at all.
[I get what they're going for, but I'm not so sure]

Blind Fire is a Basic action, and combines with Fast Shot to become a Simple action.
[Nope, I'd sooner remove Blind Fire]

Crawling becomes a Basic action
[I don't really see the benefit unless you're also making Blind Fire a Basic action, which would be a good reason not to do this]

They list all special actions, such as those granted by skills or wargear, in the Action phase section. Each action description includes the prerequisite item/skill/whatever.
[It's nice to have these all in one place, but it's a lot of actions]

Fighters can move into base contact without making a Charge move.
[Charging is a big topic with a lot of possible changes, but I generally support the removal of the 1" rule]

After charging, a fighter can do nothing, Fight, or any other Basic action that can be performed whilst engaged, such as Hurl or Restrain.
[I like this, it makes those skills actually feasible to use]

Then I'll leave specific comments on shooting and close combat for future topics dedicated to those.
I'm inclined to agree with your comments on these Kiro.

Chems as a blocker to leading by example. I feel a few of the black market chems could have that as a downside (Frenzon being the obvious), but I'm inclined to say it's not a big deal at all compaired to the other two examples.

Falsehood are on the list of wargear than needs a complete redesign IMHO, but I feel that sort of stuff is for after core rule changes have been done.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
802
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Bristol, UK
It would require greater definition of who has what base size though.
And would mean players couldn't really deviate from the recommended at all.

My Phyrrcats are on 25mm, although I believe 32mm is more appropriate. Because the models are a little small and they'd look a bit dwarfed on a 32mm. Plus I had 25mm bases spare.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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We could add a new 'size' characteristic (say: normal/big/huge) and have associated recommended base size if you prefer (25, 32, 40)
It would be better than trying to derive it from S/T imo.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
802
997
98
Bristol, UK
That would be nice, the Discord suggestions also include shooting modifiers for small (-1) and large (+1) targets.
Although I would classify both 25mm and 32mm as fairly normal