Rules suggestions - Resolve hits

Spenetrator

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I like Thorgor's idea of doing the armour roll before wound roll, that always seemed the wrong way round from a logical point of view. And therefore field saves (and special saves) should logically come before armour too. And in addition, as Kiro suggests.

Love auto fails. Hate auto successes.
 
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TopsyKretts

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Save and save-adjacent mechanics really need to be streamlined and clarified. I love the idea of Special saves.

Also, I know it's heresy, but I'd also really like to have all the saves moved to before the Wound roll (mechanics that affect the armour save depending on the Wound roll would obviously have to be modified) or, failing that, to after the Wound roll.

It's more of a Wargear talk, but how the various 'types' of armour can be stacked also need to be reworked to make some kind of sense. It's completely ridiculous to have the Armoured bodyglove be armour while Armoured undersuit is personal equipment for instance, not to mention there is no limit to the number of shields a fighter can carry and use at the same time.
If I understand correctly, official rules say some saves can be modified by AP, some cannot be modified and some ignore saves all together, then you have bonus 'saves' like precognition thing for familiars and Caryatid. And that sidestep skill.

I would like to simply have normal saves and invulnerable saves.
 

JawRippa

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Mar 31, 2017
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Invulnerable saves are pretty situational in necromunda if they are used instead of armour. I'd rather word them happenning before armour saves, which seems to have been implied originally by GW anyway. I think it makes sense that first the field stops the shot, and then armour, should the field fail. Otherwise you are better off running around naked if you have a displacement field and can't afford a heavy carapace (or don't want to suffer penalties).
 
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TopsyKretts

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Based on my experience from 40k, invulnerable saves used to be an alternative to normal save, so you would have to choose which one to use.
 

Galtarr

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Mar 1, 2017
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The rules used to state only you had to choose field or regular armour not both - is that still a thing?

I think I'm the only one who used field armour in our 3 campaigns. It was back in N17 turf war campaign before alot of the extra armour came out.

Threw a displacer field on my Lascannon champ late in the campaign. Fun times. They're not that efficient compared to under armour or ablative overlay etc..
 

Heart of Storm

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Mar 8, 2019
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Whereas I don't disagree with armour save before wounding making more "logical" sense, I think changing that around without a clear purpose in mind is just going to be needlessly confusing, armour save has always come last in geedubs games and its what people will default too, so the rationale for moving it needs to be sound.

The logic behind it is (I guess) who cares whether your armour would have blocked attacks that won't seriously harm the model - you only roll for those that will reduce its wound characteristic. From that perspective arnour last makes sense.

The other reason is saves roles are typically harder to make than wound roles, so as a player they fit better as "this models gonna die unless I can roll that 5+", swapping that around to "I failed my armour save, best hope my opponent fails his 2+ to wound" removes agency from the player and the feeling that they have a chance to save their model..
 

TopsyKretts

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Another argument is, the active player (attacker) keeps rolling the dice until the the opponent (defender) has to roll. So unless the attacker makes a successful wound, the defender doesn't have to do anything? This isn't a big issue for focused players who pay attention, but having played lots of different people, I know some are unfocused and not paying attention, so it's easier if one part can continue doing their thing until the last moment where the other player has to make rolls.
 

Thorgor

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The only reason not to move armour save to where it should always have been, is effects like Seismic that depend on the Wound roll and affect the armour save (however, it could easily be moved to the hit roll, just like Power)

I think changing that around without a clear purpose in mind is just going to be needlessly confusing, armour save has always come last in geedubs games and its what people will default too
Yes, "We have always done it that way'... and it never made sense, so let's change it.
Having half the saves before the wound roll and half the saves after is what is needlessly confusing imo.

Another argument is, the active player (attacker) keeps rolling the dice until the the opponent (defender) has to roll.
There is no good reason for the two players to be involved here. The attacker could roll everything and it wouldn't change the outcome at all (and it would be faster).
Also, if the armour save fails, the attacker is then supposed to make the injury roll so the point is kinda moot.
Also², why doesn't the same logic apply to field saves and dodge-like effects?
 
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JawRippa

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I think that armour saves being at the end of wounidng sequence does not really need changing, people are too used to it. However turning field armour into an "dodge"-like ability, that triggers after successful hit, preventing the hit would be pretty flavorful. If you saw enemy shots harmlessly bouncing off your field, you wouldn't go for cover, but as soon as one goes through you'd probably drop down for cover.

Invulnerable saves and armour saves being "same" are a 40k thing, for the sake of balance (especially nowadays, when they are giving invulnerable saves to everything). In campaign skirmish we can easily balance fields to make them actually worth using, but really rare and costly/easy to break/having detrimental quirks. Like the fields should. Currently fields barely have a puprose in the game once you've stacked your armour.
 

Thorgor

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If we want to keep field saves and armour saves happening during two different steps, then at the very least the player shouldn't have to choose one or the other (it makes no sense anyway that your physical armour suddenly turns into paper just because your field armour is activated).
It may require some rebalancing but I'm not even sure as field armours are currently trash (which is a shame, as they have fun side-effects). The main problem with armour is that getting to 2+ (or better) is possible at all (let alone relatively easy), but I'm not sure it can be fixed without removing some items from the game (maybe stacking armour past a certain point could give some blanket M and/or I penalties, regardless of what the items used really say?).
 
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Al_Weeks

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Dec 22, 2014
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I agree that 'special saves' (fields, dodge etc) get a lot more benefit from working post to hit roll and allowing you to ignore the effects of 'being hit', such as pinning.

At the moment these special saves don't see much use, as they often have downsides or are very poor saves for the price.

I'd like to see them more in mid to late campaigns (aka make them more viable) and I think this does this perfectly.

As for armour saves, just keep them where they are. Having them before wound rolls can easily be a house rule for those that prefer it to help their immersion (and I get the logic behind it).

Special saves are uncommon enough (and the new proposed added benefit of ignoring the hit on effects) warrants their slotting into between the to hit and to wound roll.

I don't think the ability to have both a field and an armour save on a model is too overpowering in a skirmish game (at least with the fields and special saves that exist now)

Sequence becomes

1. To hit roll
2. Special saves
3. Wound roll
4. Armour saves
5. Injury rolls

As 2 is a rare occurrence it doesn't break things up too much.
 

Al_Weeks

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If we want to keep field saves and armour saves happening during two different steps, then at the very least the player shouldn't have to choose one or the other (it makes no sense anyway that your physical armour suddenly turns into paper just because your field armour is activated).
It may require some rebalancing but I'm not even sure as field armours are currently trash (which is a shame, as they have fun side-effects). The main problem with armour is that getting the 2+ (or better) is possible at all (let alone relatively easy), but I'm not sure it can be fixed without removing some items from the game (maybe stacking armour past a certain point could give some blanket M and/or I penalties, regardless of what the items used really say?).
Agreed the special saves at the moment arent better than 4+ and generally have some downsides at that level.

It's a fair point that 2+ armour saves are possible and perhaps heavy carapace at least should have some more downsides (it is expensive mind).
 

TopsyKretts

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I think that armour saves being at the end of wounidng sequence does not really need changing, people are too used to it. However turning field armour into an "dodge"-like ability, that triggers after successful hit, preventing the hit would be pretty flavorful. If you saw enemy shots harmlessly bouncing off your field, you wouldn't go for cover, but as soon as one goes through you'd probably drop down for cover.

Invulnerable saves and armour saves being "same" are a 40k thing, for the sake of balance (especially nowadays, when they are giving invulnerable saves to everything). In campaign skirmish we can easily balance fields to make them actually worth using, but really rare and costly/easy to break/having detrimental quirks. Like the fields should. Currently fields barely have a puprose in the game once you've stacked your armour.
They are used like invulernable saves in 40k, either alone (expensive alternative to normal armour) or as a back-up save against powerful weapons (high AP). "Everything" in Necromunda used to be based on 40k, that's not a bad thing, as long as it's severely scaled down.

It could be interesting to moving fields into a special type of save that is applied after being hit. Would field armour be in addition to other "saves" like step aside skill? And we still have to clearify invulnerable saves though.

Should we go for the following:
  • Bonus Saves applied on hits (can ignore the hit completely if successful):
    • 0-1 Field saves (applies after being hit and can ignore the hit completely if successful)
    • 0-* Special rules (skills & special rules like step aside, omen of fortune)
  • 0-1 Armour save (2 variants):
    • Standard (can be modified by AP)
    • Invulnerable (cannot be modified by AP)
Standard Armour save can be combined by the following "parts":
  • 0-1 Normal armour
  • 0-1 Shield (either make all shields close combat weapons or introduce a 'Shield' keyword to all shields)
  • 0-1 Combinable armour (undersuits, bodygloves ++)
Invulnerable saves cannot be modified (by shields or combinable armour).
 
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Thorgor

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Oct 12, 2015
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Ok, suggestion time:

A fighter has up to 3 saves: a Dodge saves, a Field save and an Armour save.​
A naked fighter has a value of 7+ for each 3 saves (i.e., auto-fail/no save). Effects from items/skills/rules no longer give the fighter a given save, but give them a bonus to one of the 3 saves (for instance, Mesh armour gives +2 to the Armour save, Dodge gives +1 to the Dodge save, etc. — this should make calculating a cumulated armour save easier when several layers (+ cover) are involved, and would allow for stacking stuff like Dodge and Omen of fortunes into a single roll)​
Regardless of type, a save can never be better than 2+ before negative modifiers are applied.​
The Dodge save happens immediately after a successful Hit roll and can never be negated. If successful, the fighter is not Pinned. To dodge a Template or Blast attack, the fighter must be physically moved from under the marker using the shortest route (if they don't have enough Movement to do that with the equivalent of 1 Move action, the Dodge save is considered failed and they stay in place — can it cause the fighter to Disengage? If yes, can the other fighter try to do reaction attacks?)​
The Field save happens immediately after a failed Dodge save (or a successful Hit roll, if the fighter has no Dodge save), is unaffected by AP and everything that specifically negates or affect armour saves, but can still be negated by effects like Gas or Web. If successful, the fighter stays pinned but the hit has no other effect on them.​
The Armour save happens immediately after a successful Wound roll, as per the current rules.​